beyond bluffs and beyond tells

[jordiepop]

any thought on these two books. i leafed through them the other day, and they looked alright. has anyone actually read them. i couldnt find any reviews .. thank you

[npc]

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any thought on these two books. i leafed through them the other day, and they looked alright. has anyone actually read them. i couldnt find any reviews .. thank you

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Haven't read "Beyond Bluffs" yet. My review of "Beyond Tells" is here:

http://www.jetcafe.org/~npc/reviews/...ond_tells.html

[Red_Diamond]

I have not read it yet, but I'd probably be cautious. My last book on tells was "Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells". I found it to just be a very micro (& watered down) version of Mike Caro's original works. If you could only chose between Caro's book & this one, the choice is easy, don't waste your money.

[MRBAA]

As the co-author of The Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells, I'm sorry you didn't find it more valuable. The main audience we were going for was new players who don't really know much about tells. While Caro's book is a classic, it's way out of date. I actually feel our book is better, because it deals with the general physiological and psychological reasons behind tells, how they fit into an overall approach to the game (ie. complementing solid strategic play and reading of betting patterns). I also think our focus on tells in N/L and limit he (Caro focuses mainly on draw, which was a very different game) is more relevant for players today. Most comments I've heard so far on the book have been very positive -- and it continues to sell very well (generally in the top 25 poker books at Amazon). However I have heard complaints from experienced players who wanted more specific tells and less general info. That's something we're considering expanding on for a future edition, so I'd be interested to know if that would have made the book more valuable to you.

[govman6767]

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As the co-author of The Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells, I'm sorry you didn't find it more valuable. The main audience we were going for was new players who don't really know much about tells. While Caro's book is a classic, it's way out of date. I actually feel our book is better, because it deals with the general physiological and psychological reasons behind tells, how they fit into an overall approach to the game (ie. complementing solid strategic play and reading of betting patterns). I also think our focus on tells in N/L and limit he (Caro focuses mainly on draw, which was a very different game) is more relevant for players today. Most comments I've heard so far on the book have been very positive -- and it continues to sell very well (generally in the top 25 poker books at Amazon). However I have heard complaints from experienced players who wanted more specific tells and less general info. That's something we're considering expanding on for a future edition, so I'd be interested to know if that would have made the book more valuable to you.

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I bought this book as one out of 30 in Iraq and it was not that bad. They even tell you in the book that caro's is outdated and ther is some good stuff in the book.

Personally I liked the tall tales section
+ caro's book did not have a section on protecting yourself from angle shooting.

[MRBAA]

Thanks for the kind words. Hope your tour went okay -- how was serving over there?

[Red_Diamond]

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However I have heard complaints from experienced players who wanted more specific tells and less general info.

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After all the time that has passed since Caro’s original research, yes I would have looked forward to more in this area. I didn’t know that this book was aimed more for beginners, but the title seemed to have mislead me then.

Anyhow, the price of this book is cheaper than Caro’s, so that is a plus, but I still think Caro’s comes out on top, even though it was written many years ago now. His stuff still does apply today, and this is one reason it is still such a hot item. Ok, so there is a chapter in here on angle-shooting… well really this is just a few short pages. There have been many books written soley on the topic of angle shooting, from one end to the other, so I still didn’t see too much of the point. If someone truly feels they need to protect themselves from this, there are volumes out there to read on this issue. A few pages really isn’t going to educate them that much.

Anyhow, this will probably be seen as an attack on the authors, I can’t help that. I do try to avoid such things. Just giving my honest opinion that I myself found it very lacking and didn’t put it down after reading feeling I learned anything. Now granted, I have been around the block many times, and have come a long way since the Caro edition… so this could bias some things.

Hopefully the next version changes my viewpoint, but we shall see. I just don’t see anyone being impacted by this one NEARLY as much as they were from Caro’s.

[Piers]

Have not read beyond bluffs. Found Beyond tells interesting.

I think Caro’s book of tells, The Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells and by Beyond Tells, compliment each other well and would recommend reading the trio.

Both TUGTPT and BT kind of assume the reader is familiar with CBOT while both introduce new ideas.

[davebreal]

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any thought on these two books. i leafed through them the other day, and they looked alright. has anyone actually read them. i couldnt find any reviews .. thank you

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i highly recommend both. i think McKenna put a great effort into helping the readers understand/exploit specific player types in these books. i honestly would sooner put these books on a B&M NLHE must-read list ahead of super system and caro's book.

[driller]

Mistakenly bought both. About half through Beyond Bluffs when I came to pages 71-73. The author is discussing how to play pocket pairs and gives as examples qq,99, and 22 in MP. First rattle out of the box he states that the odds against improving to a set are 11:1. (7.5:1 against improving to set or better). Then after an example flop (Ad Jd Tc) he goes on to state that the odds of catching a set are 11:1 (only correct if you see turn and river). This is only one example. In many places whole paragraphs are almost repeated.

I thought Bluffs might be a little more timely, since it is written later, but so far I am real disappointed. I haven't cracked Tells yet, don't know if I will.