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#1
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Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games Study Group - Day Two
Part 2: Playing in a Steal Situation
The range Stox suggest for stealing blinds is an interesting one. I dont know that I would open myself up as far as he does, where he is raising as light as 76s from the CO. I would be interested to see what all of yall think on it. The next section of this deals with a look at raising vs calling vs folding preflop in steal situations to get a sense of what is good and what is bad. I dont know that I fully understand some of the charts shown. It looks like all of the players folded in situations where it doesnt make sense and I assume they were time outs type situations. He makes the interesting point that 22 is not profitable on the button from their trials, I assume it means we should just be calling with it?? The best statement I saw from Stox on this was that your opening range needs to be based on your ability to outplay your opponents. What else??? |
#2
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Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games Study Group - Day Two
22 and 33 otb i usually fold, they are so hard to play postflp
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#3
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Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games Study Group - Day Two
I agree...against a limper i probably at least call...he seems to think we can profitably play 33 which would be extremely close at least for me.
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#4
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Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games Study Group - Day Two
my db shows 22 as a big loser and 33 as a solid winner.
limited sample size and all, but Stox is getting similar results and its kinda hard to see why... |
#5
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Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games Study Group - Day Two
can there really be that many situations where your 33 is up against A2 or something and you get a call down on a 742 flop or something?
Honestly, I can think of no earthly reason why 33 should perform that much better than 22. To my mind they should be essentially the same to the extent that if one is or isn't playable then so is the other one. I know you have to draw the line somewhere and doing so at 44 instead of 33 just seems arbitrary. But I would like more concrete reasons WHY 33 is supposedly so much better than 22 besides just the ptracker results. There has to be SOME reason or situations that make it better that I'm just not considering. In other news: I was playing a little NL tonight and lost an all-in with my set of 2's against my opponents' set of 3's. Tuck! |
#6
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Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games Study Group - Day Two
not that many more situations, but 33 gets counterfeited (very)slightly less, makes 1 more straight and gets set over setted (very) slightly less. Add to the times 3x makes a higher pair and you get a few trials like this.
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#7
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Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games Study Group - Day Two
I usually open with any pair from BTN, but my stats are red for 22-44 after that all pair are solid winners.
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#8
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Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games Study Group - Day Two
Yeah I am in the red as well..I think I need to limit my raises from the button in those situations only to when the BB has a fold to steal ratio that is pretty high.
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#9
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Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games Study Group - Day Two
[ QUOTE ]
not that many more situations, but 33 gets counterfeited (very)slightly less, makes 1 more straight and gets set over setted (very) slightly less. Add to the times 3x makes a higher pair and you get a few trials like this. [/ QUOTE ] I'm also thinking that there are enough flops where you only have 2 overcards to your pair where obviously that can never happen with 22. On an 842 flop, even if the opponent doesn't have a 2, you are able to proceed with more confidence because of that one undercard to your pair. The 22 is going to be feeling those 3 overcards more even when it's as relatively uncoordinated as T63 or something. Even moreso when you play all 5 cards out and realize that every time a 2 falls it probably helps you hand. But with 22 every one of those overcards COULD hit your opponent for all you know and there are really zero safe cards to a certain extent. I was thinking about this some more after my previous post as I was drifitng off to sleep and I think the value of having only 2 overcards on the flop occasionally vs. 3 overcards has to be worth something in terms of being able to extract value during the hand. |
#10
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Re: Winning in Tough Hold \'em Games Study Group - Day Two
xxxx2 out there is no problem to 33 nor to 22. xxxx3 out there is a problem to 22 but not to the 33. So, it would count that one extra safe card that the 33 has, and that's not nothing as there are only somewhat over 10 different cards on the deck (five on the board).
Some minor thing there is in favor of the 22 (vs. the 33); when the 2 boards the 22 has a strong hand (and the 33 will not fold as easily) but when the 3 (or any higher card) boards (as the bottom card) the 22 is looking weaker. There seems to be some reversed similarity when comparing big pairs, e.g. AA is a bigger favorite over the KK than KK is a over the QQ. From that point of view, as the AA is so good, one could think that maybe the 22 is comparatively bad. Just for the wonder of it, at Stars I have after about a 10K of hands at my new limit a very much higher win rate with the KK and QQ at limit holdem than I have with the AA - that rates at the level of the JJ. |
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