A Concept I Don't Understand

[Utah]

From stoxtrader's book. Page 140.

There is a steal raise and you defend in the BB with Q7o. The flop comes J,5,2 rainbow. You check and the stealer c-bets.

The book says you should c/c because all your pair outs are likely live. I don't get this and I would fold here almost every time and c/r on occassion. But, I would never call. You are approx 8-1 to hit your pair and current pot odds are only 4.5-1. I can't see your implied odds being 8-1 and your outs to the 7 may not be any good (or to the Q for that matter).

What am I missing? Is this an easy c/c with Q7o? If so, I have a serious leak in my game.

[aargh57]

Well, he doesn't actually say that you should c/c. He actually says that you may be able to call a c-bet with a flop like that. Perhaps by saying you "may" be able to call a c-bet here would be one of those situational things. For example, perhaps a BIIIG Lag who goes to SD way to much steals from the button and SB completes and you call. The J52 flop comes and blinds check and he bets, small blind folds and it's to you now getting 7 to one vs a guy that will almost always pay you off when you hit. I don't think that he meant that you should call here every time. I think it's more to illustrate the difference between Q7 and K2.

[Oink]

I dont know if its an easy c/c. But I know I dont fold. (c/r or c/c). Ok I do fold if its a very tight steal raise from a guy that is SD bound.

You say 8:1 to hit. Sorry but that would be 6.8:1. Minor thing tho.

Also by c/c'ing you will sometimes get a free river when he checks behind. In other cases you get to c/r bluff say a K turn.

There is definetely positive implied odds in hitting a Q. Dunno about a 7.

If you want to succeed at 5/T and above this is not a fold, that is for sure.

[Pancho]

[ QUOTE ]

If you want to succeed at 5/T and above this is not a fold, that is for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you explain a little on why it's a fold below 5/10 but not upwards?

I play 1/2 and 2/4 but this would be either a c/r or fold for me also, without the correct odds.
and especiall stox(juding from his play in the vids) i think would fold that with his conservative play?

Thx

[Utah]

[ QUOTE ]
You say 8:1 to hit. Sorry but that would be 6.8:1. Minor thing tho

[/ QUOTE ] How are you getting 6.8:1?

[Oink]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You say 8:1 to hit. Sorry but that would be 6.8:1. Minor thing tho

[/ QUOTE ] How are you getting 6.8:1?

[/ QUOTE ]

6 cards to improve. 47 unknown. 41:6 = 6.8:1. Am I missing something?

@ Pancho

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to succeed at 5/T and above this is not a fold, that is for sure.


[/ QUOTE ]

This was a controversial statement. The 5/T was taken arbitrarily. Thinking about it, this wouldnt be a disastrous fold but at higher stakes there is plenty of players where either c/r or c/c has +EV. I think there are fewer of those players at lower stakes

[Utah]

[ QUOTE ]
6 cards to improve. 47 unknown. 41:6 = 6.8:1. Am I missing something?

[/ QUOTE ]
6/47 = roughly 1 in 8

[ QUOTE ]
This was a controversial statement. The 5/T was taken arbitrarily. Thinking about it, this wouldnt be a disastrous fold but at higher stakes there is plenty of players where either c/r or c/c has +EV. I think there are fewer of those players at lower stakes

[/ QUOTE ]I only play 3/6 - 10/20 shorthanded and I don't see a lot of value in setting up a turn c/r with nothing against a vast majority of players. I even questioned my c/r with a flush draw in a hand I just posted. There is simply too much chance of getting called down with light to nothing holdings.

[yourface]

7:1 = 1 in 8

[MacGuyV]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know if its an easy c/c. But I know I dont fold. (c/r or c/c).

[/ QUOTE ]

[sethypooh21]

Against thinking opponents, c/c is better than C/R because on this board c/R looks FoSh. and you will get bluff/value-raised on the turn a whole lot here. I tend to fold this flop perhaps too much, especially if playing more than 4 tables because this is a tricky spot to play well.