I don't think I want Collin Moshman posting on STTF anymore

[durron597]

Original thread:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...umber=11681623

My reply:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...umber=11689304

Mat? Mason? cit/wiggs/devin? thoughts?

[durron597]

Oh, more details on point 4:

I really think that almost everything Collin writes (including his book) is designed specifically for the purpose of making the higher stakes sngs better (by getting people to move up before they're ready, making them enough better at low stakes sngs that they may decide to move up but not actually get good at them, etc.)

edit: i also don't care if collin reads this, it's a private forum - no harm, no foul. i certainly don't intend to try to hurt 2+2 book sales. if my assessment is unfounded then collin is free to correct me here and I will apologize at that time.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi durron:

[ QUOTE ]
I really think that almost everything Collin writes (including his book) is designed specifically for the purpose of making the higher stakes sngs better (by getting people to move up before they're ready, making them enough better at low stakes sngs that they may decide to move up but not actually get good at them, etc.)


[/ QUOTE ]

This argument has been made for almost twenty years concerning our books. The typical player does not play ultra high limits and never will. Collin's book was not designed to make a top notch player and even better player.

But there's no questiuon in my mind that if you're relatively new to sit 'n go's and study his book, and play at reasonable stakes, it will certainly help you. Then as you gain experience and spend the appropriate time reviewing your play and thinking about many hands, you can begin to move up.

This statement applies to many of our books, not just Collin's, and David and I have made it or something equivalent in many places (including some of our books). So when you say:

[ QUOTE ]
really think that almost everything Collin writes (including his book) is designed specifically for the purpose of making the higher stakes sngs better

[/ QUOTE ]

that's just flat out wrong.

Best wishes,
Mason

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
really think that almost everything Collin writes (including his book) is designed specifically for the purpose of making the higher stakes sngs better

[/ QUOTE ]

that's just flat out wrong.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

Mason,

I really, truly hope you are correct and that this is just a misunderstanding. However, when I read something like:

[ QUOTE ]

Suppose you are a Stars $16 grinder, multi-tabling with an ROI of 7% over many games. You should strongly consider playing fewer tables at a higher buyin (bankroll allowing, of course). Doing so will have an uncertain effect on your hourly winrate.

[/ QUOTE ]

and then goes on to advocate that such players should be moving up anyway seems VERY disingenuous to me. A player with 7% ROI is not ready to move up in the current environment, period.

[wiggs73]

Durron,

Jmo, but I don't think Collin is trying to get people to move up with his posts and/or books. The idea that he would write a book and post on a forum with the sole intentions of getting a few low stakes players to move up to SNGs that he may or may not even play any more just seems a bit silly and unfounded to me.

And fwiw, I think someone who can get 7% at the $16s could likely do 5% or so at the $27s. So their hourly rate would actually be better there. Hopefully no one reads Collin's posts and tries to jump straight from $16s to $114s. But whatever.



I really don't have a problem with Collin posting in STTF. In fact, the only problem I have is how much of a drama bomb every single thread he starts turns into. Honestly, I think he posts way better content than most of the heavy volume posters in STTF, save a few obvious people.

I do agree his last thread was spammy and should have been locked, so I think you made a good call on that. If it were up to me, I would tell Collin that he's welcome to post in and start strategy threads but to please not advertise his coaching services or book in inappropriate places, such as in the body of new threads he starts. If he is genuinely interested in coaching low stakes players, then perhaps we could add his site to the list of instructional sites in the 'other links' sticky.

[citanul]

wow,

i have all sorts of opinions on all of this stuff, but wow wow. i don't really have time right now to get deep in to it, but here's a couple things:

0) Mason makes a series of good points.

1) Collin's posts are almost definitely not "written to get people to take shots at higher games than they are ready for, in order to make the higher stakes games easier."

2) I think it's laughable that a guy who has forever refused to make his statistics of any sort public would get coaching traffic.

3) I think Collin's posts are generally well written and sometimes have good content. However, the manner in which he handles threads he posts in is pretty ridiculous. He routinely says things that are either wrong or are meant "to generate discussion" and then either never posts in the thread again or drops it for 2 or 3 days at a time. Part of the reason his threads turn in to such dramabombs is because they are bumped every few days, by him, and because his name is blue, so people take more interest and hold them to a higher standard.

4) Mason, I haven't even read the book, and don't intend to unless a free copy magically appears at my apartment and I have some free time. However, I have read basically every thread that has commentary on the book, and basically every one of Collin's posts. The number of comments produced by respected and knowledgeable posters/players that show that not only is Collin's book "not aimed at making a good player in to a great player" but but Collin frequently thinks about various (sometimes common) situations incorrectly, doesn't understand the mathematics of a mathematically founded game, and just in general gets things wrong, is quite large. (I think I got my clauses all closed in that sentence, if I didn't, my apologies, I'm in a hurry.)

5) I think at issue for many of the respected twoplustwo sttf readers and posters is that it doesn't appear from the selection of this author or this text that the company understands the nature of stt play and the landscape of the stt marketplace. Quite simply, I could make a "beginner" player (who knows what hands beat what, and kinda how to play poker) in to a "good" player in ... say 15 pages that they would have to read many times, or say, 1 to 2 hours of live instruction.

However, a "good" player, in today's marketplace, will have difficulty beating even "low" stakes games. Saying that this book shouldn't be considered an aid to moving to "the highest stakes" or whatever is interesting. Consider the turbo sit and goes on stars. They range in buyin in some manner like this: $1 $2 $5 $16 $24 $33 $60 $100 $200 $300 $500 $1000 $2000. My guess at how high a "good" player can make a profit is like the $30 level. My guess at how high Collin could make a profit if he plays like he posts that he plays, is something <= $30.

Saying that as a publishing house you're content to produce a book that is aimed at getting people to the $30 level, when in fact if the book was simply written so that it was factually accurate and presented a good and logical way of thinking about situations, I believe it could be expected to get players to beating say, the $100 or $200 level, is a little sad. (fwiw, stts are generally, these days, played with between say 50 and 100 buyin bankroll, depending on aggressiveness of bankroll management, in case you are trying to fit these people in to "high stakes" and "low stakes" categories.)

OK, sorry this got long, and sorry I can't continue, and sorry it wasn't all on point for now, a few points on point I guess:

Collin should be given more leeway than avg Joe. Mat/Mason should be contacted before we trash or lock or whatever a Collin post. Moving thread here is probably better than locking. Collin shouldn't be allowed to spam. It would make a better impression on everyone if Collin would be more active in the forum, and particularly in the threads he starts. It would sell more books, cause more posting volume, and in general people would have more goodwill toward him. Collin should a few times admit that he is wrong when people point out the glaringly ridiculously obvious mistakes he makes.

[ajmargarine]

[img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] Dramabomb! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[DevinLake]

[ QUOTE ]
PS If you are indeed a high-volume low-mid stakes player, PM me if you’re interested in potentially earning some free money/coaching.


[/ QUOTE ]

Although it is a touch slimmy, I didn't really think it overly spammy or anything, so I just let it go.

As for the content of his post, well...I don't know. It's really hard to say what his motivation is here.

I, myself, would much prefer to play 4 $200 sngs than 20-$10 ones, even if my hourly was slightly less. So, I kind of agree with him.

[*TT*]

My 2 cents - you should have picked up the phone and talked to Mat rather than make a post and lock the thread. 2+2 has a lot invested in Colin's success, its a slim line. I understand your intentions were good, but this is an issue that requires Mat and Mason's input.

[Dids]

TT,

What the hell do you think the point of this thread is? Expecting us to call Mat and Mason is ridic. A pm maybe, but I think if a mod is going to lock a thread by a 2p2 author, a public explanation is best, simply because people are going to ask anyway.

I question casting motives onto people as a general practice, so I think that's a silly part of the conversation. I do seem to recall that this isn't the first issue people have taken with this text though, right?

Just on it's own merits, that post is pretty horrible and condescending. 2p2 authors aren't gong to be very successful if they're mostly talking down to their target demo.