party 200K guaranteed early hand : AA input wanted

[Apegod]

Hi all,

Third hand in the party 200K guaranteed. ( couldnt get convertor to work but want to post the hand anyway).

I laid down AA, which was probably a mistake and just plain bad play.. still dont want to have a discussion as to wether or not the play was correct...

At the time It felt like I was beaten, i know 10xs or pocket 6 are not the only possibly holdings here but my read/feeling was the flop did hit him..( I played it like this because I wanted to see if my read was correct.. )

now my question /statement is the following : i felt it was correct to fold the hand because this early in the tournament my chips are more valuable and will allow me later on to gain momentum and still have a good tournament ( I ended up taking 19th place btw)


So please no feedback on how I played the hand.. would like to understand what others would have done in the situation.. commit their chips hoping for a double up already now or take the safer route and try and outplay the field..

I felt it was more important to me to keep 4K in chips then to get a stack of 10K.. with blinds this low I dont need the chips yet.

***** Hand History for Game 5495369706 *****
NL Texas Hold'em Trny: 30715067 Level: 1 Blinds(20/40) - Sunday, December 10, 12:55:15 ET 2006
Table 200K Guaranteed Sunday (887797) Table #91 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: Jorkel ( 4940 )
Seat 2: DRohn ( 5000 )
Seat 3: She_DiDIt ( 5000 )
Seat 4: tordo ( 5120 )
Seat 5: eiger1811 ( 5000 )
Seat 6: WillyTheKid ( 4735 )
Seat 7: BeetleRules ( 5025 )
Seat 8: spatzentiger ( 5340 )
Seat 9: Great__Ape ( 4840 )
Seat 10: Seilly ( 4940 )
Trny: 30715067 Level: 1
Blinds(20/40)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Great__Ape [ Ad As ]
tordo folds
eiger1811 folds
WillyTheKid folds
BeetleRules folds
spatzentiger folds
Great__Ape raises [140]
Seilly folds
Jorkel calls [140]
DRohn folds
She_DiDIt folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6c, Td, Tc ]
Great__Ape bets [200]
Jorkel raises [700]
Great__Ape calls [500]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9d ]
Great__Ape checks
Jorkel bets [1100]
Great__Ape folds
Jorkel does not show cards.
Jorkel wins 2840 chips

[Cornell Fiji]

If you don't want feedback on how you played the hand then what exactly are you looking for?

If your question is: "Is it important to accumulate chips to win a MTT or do you just want to survive?"
Then the answer is clearly that you want to accumulate chips early and often. Survival is for SNGs, in MTTs you need to accumulate whenever possible

[Apegod]

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't want feedback on how you played the hand then what exactly are you looking for?

If your question is: "Is it important to accumulate chips to win a MTT or do you just want to survive?"
Then the answer is clearly that you want to accumulate chips early and often. Survival is for SNGs, in MTTs you need to accumulate whenever possible

[/ QUOTE ]

yep that was my question.. I know it is important to accumalate as much as possible early on.. the question is..will you do it no matter what.. or is it better in situations like to one above to fold..and continue with what is left?

alltough I was probably ahead, just I didnt feel that my top pair was enough to go all in in that spot.. there was a change I was already behind.. and dint feel like committing the rest of my stack

[Cornell Fiji]

[ QUOTE ]
alltough I was probably ahead, just I didnt feel that my top pair was enough to go all in in that spot.. there was a change I was already behind.. and dint feel like committing the rest of my stack

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, this logic is very very bad.

Like really bad.

There are a ton of players in this tournament. You need to accumulate early on in order to win this thing.

There are many great MTTers on this forum who would not pass up a 50.01/49.99 edge in these tournaments. Some want more of an edge than that but the point stands that you can't pass up spots where you think you are ahead if you want to win a big tournament

[Beachman42]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
alltough I was probably ahead, just I didnt feel that my top pair was enough to go all in in that spot.. there was a change I was already behind.. and dint feel like committing the rest of my stack

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, this logic is very very bad.

Like really bad.

There are a ton of players in this tournament. You need to accumulate early on in order to win this thing.

There are many great MTTers on this forum who would not pass up a 50.01/49.99 edge in these tournaments. Some want more of an edge than that but the point stands that you can't pass up spots where you think you are ahead if you want to win a big tournament

[/ QUOTE ]

Your edge is way more than 51%. It takes more than a feeling to prevent me from going AI with AA on this board. JJ-KK is far more likely than a T.

Finishing 19th is being results oriented. Pushing here may have gotten you higher (there - reverse-results-oriented [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img])

[synbad13]

Raising to 200 PF is bad. Only way it's appropriate is if there are multiple very loose players and/or one guy who will call almost all of his hands. The PF raise is fine.

I would certainly have all my chips in the pot after his re-raise. If you plan on folding the turn, you should just fold the flop to his re-raise. This saves you chips if that is your "feel"... as nothing except an ace will win this for you if you feel you're behind (and you certainly didn't have odds to try for it).

[Trappped]

I totally and utterly disagree. Committing all your chips on a coinflip early on is just gambling, as ironic and backwards as that sounds. Many of the top tournament pros in the world like Negreanu, Cunningham, Mizrachi, Gavin Smith, all favor small ball vs long ball for accumulating a big stack.
Even Brunson quoted Johnny Moss in SS#1 that Moss's strategy in tourneys always favored survival versus gambling on slightly +EV situations. Me personally, I won't go to war for it all unless I have a set, or better, or can get 1st in Vig. on a monster draw (like 15 outs or better with 2 cards to come).

[stevepa]

Trappped, I don't know how to put this other than that you're wrong. First of all, I don't know if you've ever seen Negreanu, Mizrachi or Smith play early in a tournament, but by reputation they are very willing to gamble early. I've played with Mizrachi once before and "smallball" is not exactly how I'd describe his style of play.

You mentioned Brunson and Moss earlier and I think that's interesting to discuss. Poker has become so much more aggressive recently that I think the idea of "smallball" has become all but useless. Players used to be so weak tight (just play with some of the older pros) that you were probably right to pass up some edges because it was so easy to accumulate chips. That's just not true anymore, particularly in fast structured online tournaments. You have to gamble to get chips.

Now I know you're not going to agree with me, and that's fine, but at least look at this and try to realize why it can never be right:

[ QUOTE ]
Me personally, I won't go to war for it all unless I have a set, or better, or can get 1st in Vig. on a monster draw (like 15 outs or better with 2 cards to come).

[/ QUOTE ]

There are times to fold sets (or better) and times to call off all your chips with one pair (or worse). I said it in another post but having these restrictive guidelines is, to put it bluntly, stupid.

Steve

[Fiksdal]

I raise it to t200 preflop.

Villains line could easily be a ten, I don't hate your fold.

[Cornell Fiji]

What is the villains range that he would play like this?
QQ/JJ/any ten/AcKc/AcQc/AcJc/8c9c/7c8c/66/KK (discounted bc he would raise pf often)

If you think that you are 2:1 vs his range then you should call on the turn and get it in on the river. If not then fold...

Also, is he ever not betting around 1k when checked to after his flop raise? If he is always firing again when you show weakness why did you call the 500 raise?

but here I am talking about your play when you explicitly asked us not to...