Razz - single-table sat . - defending bring-in

[jbrennen]

Scheduled Satellite to FTOPS Razz event. Only 4 entrants, winner gets the FTOPS seat -- everyone else gets nothing.

Tournament - Razz (60/120), Ante 10, Bring-In 20 (converter)

Hero: 863
Seat 2: 2,665
Seat 3: 1,826
Seat 4: 646

3rd Street - (0.67 SB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 2: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes

4th Street - (2.67 SB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (2.33 BB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (4.33 BB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

River - (6.33 BB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___ <font color="blue">???</font>
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___bets

Total pot: (11.93 BB - 1,432)



Thoughts? Bad spot to defend, or okay? Note that since this is a freeze-out tournament, I'm sort of treating it more like a cash game. (According to the ICM models, your equity in a freeze-out is basically linearly proportional to your chip count.)

If I call 3rd, should I fold 4th? Obviously, my opponent is likely betting 3rd and 4th this way with any two down cards.

And what to do on the river? (Note that if I raise, he'd only have 36 chips -- 0.3 big bets -- left with which to 3-bet if he so desired.)

[Mathew82]

I think the defend is a lil frisky because you still got the chips where you can wait for a better spot.

I did a simulation and it shows that your equity is 42.55% against a random ace which the low antes and the bring in doesn't balance the deficit occured by the implied odds of playing out the hand. Infact the odds are even worse when taking into account the strategic considerations of playing the hand out.

[betgo]

I probably wouldn't defend since it is short handed, so there is less in the pot, but the defend isn't terrible.

I would fold 4th. When you defend, you really have to catch right. Here you have 2 bricks and really can't continue.

Flat call the river.

[Mathew82]

[ QUOTE ]
I probably wouldn't defend since it is short handed, so there is less in the pot, but the defend isn't terrible.

I would fold 4th. When you defend, you really have to catch right. Here you have 2 bricks and really can't continue.

Flat call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't play catch up for a single street when defending, ever. If you defend, if you are going to play it at all, you play out the hand. The difference between this example and the last one I discussed with you is this time the player is in the total steal position and if you outflop him you will get him to fold his hand a percentage of the time. Again your not drawing to a nut flush in hold'em where your guaranteed to win the pot and this needs to be taken into account when playing the bring-in.

However as the stealer, both his raises on third and fourth are automatic because mathematically the bring-in should of folded on third anyhows and 'he can play to outflop' on fifth because of the upcard because he knows that he would have to fold. So when he bets out after catching the same card - if you called on third, the bringins pot equity has actually risen because of the other two 9s that could now pair his hand. So if you called third, you need to call fourth otherwise you should not of defended at all.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I probably wouldn't defend since it is short handed, so there is less in the pot, but the defend isn't terrible.

I would fold 4th. When you defend, you really have to catch right. Here you have 2 bricks and really can't continue.

Flat call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't play catch up for a single street when defending, ever. If you defend, if you are going to play it at all, you play out the hand. The difference between this example and the last one I discussed with you is this time the player is in the total steal position and if you outflop him you will get him to fold his hand a percentage of the time. Again your not drawing to a nut flush in hold'em where your guaranteed to win the pot and this needs to be taken into account when playing the bring-in.

However as the stealer, both his raises on third and fourth are automatic because mathematically the bring-in should of folded on third anyhows and 'he can play to outflop' on fifth because of the upcard because he knows that he would have to fold. So when he bets out after catching the same card - if you called on third, the bringins pot equity has actually risen because of the other two 9s that could now pair his hand. So if you called third, you need to call fourth otherwise you should not of defended at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree the apparent stealer is betting regardless on 4th, but you still can't call. I would call or bet if I caught better than villain or we both caught low. Here you caught the same, but now you have two bricks showing.

I don't see why calling the complete for like 2/3 of a small bet means you have to play the hand to the river. You are making a speculative call, hoping for a good 4th street. You can often win a big pot when villain is overcommited with a bad hand.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why calling the complete for like 2/3 of a small bet means you have to play the hand to the river. You are making a speculative call, hoping for a good 4th street. You can often win a big pot when villain is overcommited with a bad hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, then you must be very grateful Matthew showed up here to explain it all to us. In detail. Heck, I didn't even know "of" was a verb!

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
And what to do on the river? (Note that if I raise, he'd only have 36 chips -- 0.3 big bets -- left with which to 3-bet if he so desired.)

[/ QUOTE ] You raise. This guy was looking for an all-in hand, but this might not have been it since he would have presumed you would fold so he might not have two wheels under there. Then, when the hand played out, he ended up with a decent draw if nothing else. No matter what he rivered he is going to bet - it's the only way he can win the hand if he bricked.

As for myself, I almost never defend in a tournament, especially short and most especially against a short stack.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And what to do on the river? (Note that if I raise, he'd only have 36 chips -- 0.3 big bets -- left with which to 3-bet if he so desired.)

[/ QUOTE ] You raise. This guy was looking for an all-in hand, but this might not have been it since he would have presumed you would fold so he might not have two wheels under there. Then, when the hand played out, he ended up with a decent draw if nothing else. No matter what he rivered he is going to bet - it's the only way he can win the hand if he bricked.

[/ QUOTE ]

this isn't a reason to raise

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
No matter what he rivered he is going to bet - it's the only way he can win the hand if he bricked.

[/ QUOTE ]

this isn't a reason to raise

[/ QUOTE ]
You're right. The reason to raise is that the OP probably has the best hand and this way leaves the opponent with nothing if he calls and loses and might get him to lay down something marginal if he thinks he can come back with one bet. And people do.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
and might get him to lay down something marginal

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't a reason to raise, either