FPS, pure spewage, or pure brilliance...???

lil feller · #1 01-07-2006, 10:57 PM

Villian is reasonably TAG, and has folded to several river bets/raises already in the session. My image is pretty solid, and it appears that i'm running pretty good...

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
7 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.66 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.33 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.33 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets...

I'll post my thought process a little later.

comments on all streets appreciated.

thanks,

lf

ncray · #2 01-07-2006, 11:28 PM

I don't like this. He has to have a hand that:
1.He raises a donkbet on the 4 straight board without the straight and
2.Folds to a 3bet

TT, 66, maybe T9 play like this, hoping to get value from maybe a 2pair that you hit and donked, not wanting him to check an overpair or top pair. Still, a lot of people raise intending to fold to a 3 bet but still call anyways.

I don't think this is a good spot to bluff 3-bet.

AceHigh · #3 01-08-2006, 12:45 AM

1 vote for spewage.

The problem is the button put you on a flush draw because of the way you played the flop, so I would probably check/fold the river. If you would have played the flop passively (not my prefered play) then I like betting the river on this scary board.

TStoneMBD · #4 01-08-2006, 02:07 AM

you played the streets well up to the river but i think youre gonna get looked up on your river donk. after he raises you, i find your 3bet very interesting. getting 10:2 odds, i think it might be a hell of a play.

Entity · #5 01-08-2006, 04:10 AM

I'm trying to figure out what you're representing, besides Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. 87 puts more bets in on the turn. Maybe 76s? Your hand looks more like a 'pure strength' bluff than one based on hand possibilites. Added to the fact that a river bluffraise or river valueraise-fold to 3bet is so scarce, I don't like it.

lil feller · #6 01-08-2006, 05:41 AM

Ok. Preflop I think is standard. As is the flop. The turn as well.

The only real discussion point here, obviously, is the river. When I got there I wasn't completely convinced that villian had anything, even so much as a pair. I also figured, given my image and other factors that he would certainly be capable of folding all the better nonpair hands, and possible even a pair hand to a threatening, albeit suspicious, donkbet.

Others have stated that this donk can't be a straight, or even two pair, but I disagree. I often bet in spots like this, as opposed to going for a c/r against a thinking opponent, as they can't be counted on to bet, and if they do they can't be counted on to call a raise. I was hoping he knew this too, and would thus read my bet as a hand that did not want the river checked through.

Then he raises...

No hand made sense for him that could play every other street the way he did, except possibily 77. My gut told me he missed, be it a pair draw, a better flush draw, whatever...he missed. Normally in this spot i'd give up anyway, despite my read/instincts. I decided to mix it up this time, however, so I 3bet bluff.

I'm curious about what others think of my reasoning, and look forward to reading more opinions.

lf

Entity · #7 01-08-2006, 05:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Others have stated that this donk can't be a straight, or even two pair, but I disagree. I often bet in spots like this, as opposed to going for a c/r against a thinking opponent, as they can't be counted on to bet, and if they do they can't be counted on to call a raise. I was hoping he knew this too, and would thus read my bet as a hand that did not want the river checked through.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're not saying it can't be a straight because you bet. We're saying it can't be a straight because your hand doesn't look like a straight (most straights give more action on the turn or less action on the flop, with the exception of 76s).

Basically I don't like putting myself in situations where a bluff 3-bet, which is a very difficult move to pull off in general, is required, when my hand doesn't read like what I'm trying to represent.

Rob

Derek123 · #8 01-08-2006, 02:35 PM

I think this play could work here but am not convinced it will work enough to warrent it gettting 10:2. I think you could have QJc here or 76s but not much else seems to fit. One other thing I would like it more if you had seen him fold to river bet/raises in a different session rather than this one. I would think he would be making sure to get to showdown in marginal spots instead of raising and folding to a 3bet. Maybe I am giving too much credit though.

Moneyline · #9 01-08-2006, 03:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop I think is standard

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that your preflop decision is standard. I think it's a standard fold. You are out of position, with a hand that's very difficult to play, against an opponent who is at the very least fairly good, and you'll usually be a dog here (sometimes you'll be slightly ahead but sometimes you'll be totally dominated). I'm not trying to be rude here, but I'd like to hear your reasoning for defending with J4s because it doesn't make any sense to me.

lil feller · #10 01-08-2006, 06:33 PM

I may be a dog, but I'm getting 3.66:1 immediate odds to call. I'm not a huge math guy, admittely, but there aren't too many hands that I'm that big of a dog against.

Also keep in mind that villians range here is probably fairly wide, he his steal raising from the button after all. He might have AA, he might have 45s. Point being i'm not in that bad of shape.

All things considered, I think it may be close, probably close enough that it doesn't matter much, but over my experience I lose less/make more playing this hand out against most opponets then I do simply folding it.

lf