Completing the SB with trash

[HitmanHoldem]

Does anyone have some sort of method in determining if it's worth that extra little bit in completing and hoping to see a flop?

Mainly this question is about when you hold a complete trash hand like 2-7o. Do you always fold, call when there are certain people in the pot, raise in certain situations, call when it's a big pot, etc. etc.

Just wondering how people determine if it's worth playing their complete trash.

[flair1239]

For a rule of thumb, once I am getting 6 or 7-1 to complete, many hands start to look a lot better.

A no hoper like 72o would probably be ok to call with if you were getting 8 or 9-1 immediate odds with a passive big blind.

The implied odds in this situation could easily make things add up to 20-1 or so. Once you get into that territory.. it is probably not a mistake to play most hands.

[sharpie]

Depends on many factors including pot odds (number of players in the pot) and whether the BB raises much.

[bobman0330]

Unless you're getting very good odds, you should fold trash hands in a 1/2 blind structure.

[HitmanHoldem]

Well that's what I'm trying to determine. What constitutes as good enough odds to play 2-7? In a multiway pot, you're probably only going to win that hand if you hit two pair and it doesn't get counterfitted, no straights or flushes on board either, or if you hit trips, or something big like that.

Otherwise, that hand is going to be thrown away immediately. But say you're playing in a $2/$4 game with the blinds at $1/$2 and 4 people have limped, so it's $1 into a pot of $11, do you call with 2-7o if there is a passive BB?

[Warren Harding]

From: http://www.texasholdem-poker.com/calcula...&decimals=0

With 27o:

Chance of getting 3-of-a-kind on the flop:
63 to 1 (2%)

Chance of getting 2 Pair on the flop:
24 to 1 (4%)

Chance of getting a Four Flush on the flop:
44 to 1 (2%)

Hence, you will flop one of these hands once every 13 times. Sometimes it won't be enough, sometimes you'll win by other (freak) circumstances.

[renfurdson]

It also depends on the limpers. If there are a one or two limpers who you know will call you to the river every time regardless of their holdings, the implied odds go way up for when your trash turns to treasure.

I was playing with a couple of players like that today and I won a couple of decent pots playing cards I would normally fold.

[kickabuck]

flair,

I cannot agree with your assessment. There are virtually no implied odds with most trash hands. The very few times your hand is good enough to bet/raise with for decent value do not compensate for the times you catch a piece and are dominated and/or have too little equity to continue profitably. I read a thread over a year ago in which a pokerstove evaluation was done(pokerstove or similar program at least) with unsuited connectors such as 78o or 89o and the preflop odds you needed for these hands to be profitable was surprisingly high (at least 10:1 perhaps if memory serves). Granted at very low limits players go too far with weak holdings, but the point is that even a seemingly marginal hand in the small blind such as 78o can be folded and it's usually correct to do so.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
flair,

I cannot agree with your assessment. There are virtually no implied odds with most trash hands. The very few times your hand is good enough to bet/raise with for decent value do not compensate for the times you catch a piece and are dominated and/or have too little equity to continue profitably. I read a thread over a year ago in which a pokerstove evaluation was done(pokerstove or similar program at least) with unsuited connectors such as 78o or 89o and the preflop odds you needed for these hands to be profitable was surprisingly high (at least 10:1 perhaps if memory serves). Granted at very low limits players go too far with weak holdings, but the point is that even a seemingly marginal hand in the small blind such as 78o can be folded and it's usually correct to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you. if you are going to get hung up on making top pair with a trash hand and can't get away from it... then it is not profitable to play them.

However if you are willing to make some seemingly weak-tight flop folds, when the action dictates you should be fine. Assuming you are getting 8-1 initally and that means you will have a 4-5 way pot. As I said , You are getting almost 20-1 in implied odds. With that kind of action you can play fit or fold. Maybe the worst of the hands would be -EV, but if you are indeed in a 20-1 situation, it is difficult to think of a hand that should be folded.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
Chance of getting a Four Flush on the flop:
44 to 1 (2%)


[/ QUOTE ]

With enough limpers to be getting 13:1, a flopped four flush is essentially worthless with 72o.

-McGee