KK with A on board, TA, LP, What's my River Play?

Shalara · #1 03-16-2006, 05:24 PM

10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Shalara is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls, 2 folds, Shalara raises, 4 folds, SB 3-bets, BB folds, UTG calls, Shalara Caps, SB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (19SB, 3 players)
SB bets, UTG calls, Shalara raises, SB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (12.5BB, 3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Shalara checks.

River: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (12.5BB, 3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Shalara ???

Results:
Final pot: 12.5BB

sb seems TAGgish, not sure yet, hasn't played a lot of hands, but has played pretty well the few hands I've seen him in. Usually fairly aggressive. Has check-raised.

UTG is LP, got nailed some hands ago by him with a *really* weak ace and me with QQ... I can't recall if he bet flop or not (was an ace on flop), nor what I did. Argh. But I do know he check-called turn and river with Axo. Of course, he check-calls with other pairs too--I've won against him when I've had overpairs or even big pairs. He calls with a lot. Haven't seen him aggress yet.

What should I do on this river? If I was heads-up with SB I would definitely bet the river. How much should the LP guy affect my decision? What about the turn?

** side note--for those of you who didn't catch it, there's a bill that's trying to prevent on-line gambling. Check the zoo, lots of threads and ways YOU can help shut this bill down. Please don't hijack my thread tho'--this river is haunting me!

Buzz-cp · #2 03-16-2006, 05:31 PM

based on your flop action (which I don't agree with), he probably has a weaker big pair. I think I bet the turn again, and the river. In either of these cases, I think we can fold to a c/r.

Shalara · #3 03-16-2006, 07:45 PM

*nods* Kay. I was thinking that afterward, but not sure. I guess because if I were heads-up with SB, I know exactly what I'd do and why. I would raise the flop, check behind on the turn, and bet the river. With the other guy, I was not so sure. I am also thinking by the action that SB has a big underpair.

Thinking over what you said, I suppose it doesn't really matter about the LP. Any bet is basically a bet for value against him, as he'll play any pair the exact same way. And he can be holding any two cards, so long as there's a pair, face or ace, connected, or suited [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Normally I'd expect that if SB has an ace, he will either 3-bet the flop or wait to c/r me on the turn. Seeing as I can safely fold to a c/r, otherwise bet for value against LP (don't know if SB will call or not, can't say one way or the other if he'll call it down with an underpair), looks like a turn bet would have been good.

I notice you said you disagree with this particular flop play? What would you do on this flop and why?

Pocket77s · #4 03-16-2006, 07:56 PM

Your reads swayed my decision to check and have a free showdown. You said it yourself. UTG doesn't even bet his own hands. So he's hanging around with an Ace with a weak kicker. I'm thinking TAG guy had an under pair to the ace.

drzen · #5 03-16-2006, 08:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Shalara is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls, 2 folds, Shalara raises, 4 folds, SB 3-bets, BB folds, UTG calls, Shalara Caps, SB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (19SB, 3 players)
SB bets, UTG calls, Shalara raises, SB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (12.5BB, 3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Shalara checks.

River: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (12.5BB, 3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Shalara ???

Results:
Final pot: 12.5BB

sb seems TAGgish, not sure yet, hasn't played a lot of hands, but has played pretty well the few hands I've seen him in. Usually fairly aggressive. Has check-raised.

UTG is LP, got nailed some hands ago by him with a *really* weak ace and me with QQ... I can't recall if he bet flop or not (was an ace on flop), nor what I did. Argh. But I do know he check-called turn and river with Axo. Of course, he check-calls with other pairs too--I've won against him when I've had overpairs or even big pairs. He calls with a lot. Haven't seen him aggress yet.

What should I do on this river? If I was heads-up with SB I would definitely bet the river. How much should the LP guy affect my decision? What about the turn?

** side note--for those of you who didn't catch it, there's a bill that's trying to prevent on-line gambling. Check the zoo, lots of threads and ways YOU can help shut this bill down. Please don't hijack my thread tho'--this river is haunting me! 

[/ QUOTE ]

*grunch*

I'd put TAG on a draw that missed and bet. LP could have a lot of hands. No bet on the turn says he either has no ace or he's very passive. I'd have bet the turn. I'm giving odds no one holds an ace, aren't I? for 15.5 to 1BB, I'll take the bet.

waynethetrain · #6 03-16-2006, 08:33 PM

I may be too weak, but I would have folded the flop.

SB 3-bet pre flop and saw you cap, but came out gunning with an A on the board. I think you are beat a very high percentage of the time. It's expensive getting to the river all those time just to get there for the fewer times you are ahead.

Shalara · #7 03-16-2006, 09:43 PM

Here's how it went down: I checked the river. And...

I won.

SB had QQ. Pretty much figured on something like that.

LP guy, much to my annoyance, had KTo. Not even a pair. Why was I annoyed? Because I felt I should have value-bet the river and I didn't. Then again, I might not have been looking at it objectively, so I posted it here to get some objective views. So thanks for your insights [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] I will definitely do some more thinking on this, but I have more ideas on how to deal with this particular situation in the future. 'preciate it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]