Razz hand

[roggles]

Playing straight up razz for once, no HORSE.

I had not been playing a hand for a long time, which is why I decided to steal. Villain seems to be pretty bad, this is the second time he calls me with a high card. Should I fold 5th?

Razz ($5/$10), Ante $1, Bring-In $1,50 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (3.90 SB)

Seat 3: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (2.95 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (4.95 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

River - (6.95 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___bets___calls
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises

Total pot: (10.95 BB - $109,50)

[Donkey5layer]

i think i just call the river and raise... dont see a lot of value in it

[betgo]

I would fold 5th. You have 245T against something like A356. You are way behind. 5s are dead, so it is very unlikely villain is paired.

[roggles]

[ QUOTE ]
i think i just call the river and raise... dont see a lot of value in it

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't understand how you can think this. It's an obvious value raise to me.

betgo: Yeah, I know, but I am getting 1:4 on the call. On the other hand the call isn't closing the action so... is it possible to convincingly demonstrate that I am definitely losing money on this?

[WhiteWolf]

Fold 5th, you're drawing to a T, the pot is small, and you have reverse implied odds here.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think i just call the river and raise... dont see a lot of value in it

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't understand how you can think this. It's an obvious value raise to me.

betgo: Yeah, I know, but I am getting 1:4 on the call. On the other hand the call isn't closing the action so... is it possible to convincingly demonstrate that I am definitely losing money on this?

[/ QUOTE ]
You are getting good pot odds on 5th, but you obviously have to put in bets on 6th and 7th to win the hand, so your pot odds are not really so good.

[roggles]

Even if we suppose my play is to call 6th and 7th no matter what, I am getting 1:2 on my money. My odds to win the hand are slightly worse than that, but his hand is almost face up, so I can manipulate the pot very well. Doesn't this make fifth a call?

[tinkerman]

Firstly, how can somebody play 5/10 and call a complete with a picture shoping. I hope he is now on your buddy list.

I think it is a straight-forward fold on 5th. I'm sure Sklansky talks about this in his text. I'm sure he even talks about putting money in on 4th if with both showing paint if this makes your opponent call on 5th with anyother paint and you catch good.

I can't find the text, but looking at the examples in his book says a fold in a better position than you have here P181 example 11.

Your raise on 7th looks great to me. He can't re-raise and if he didn't catch good on the river you know you have a better 8. Nice.

[roggles]

No matter what Sklansky says, I feel that this is a convincing argument for a call:
[ QUOTE ]
Even if we suppose my play is to call 6th and 7th no matter what, I am getting 1:2 on my money. My odds to win the hand are slightly worse than that, but his hand is almost face up, so I can manipulate the pot very well. Doesn't this make fifth a call?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't see its fault

[tinkerman]

[ QUOTE ]
No matter what Sklansky says, I feel that this is a convincing argument for a call:
[ QUOTE ]
Even if we suppose my play is to call 6th and 7th no matter what, I am getting 1:2 on my money. My odds to win the hand are slightly worse than that, but his hand is almost face up, so I can manipulate the pot very well. Doesn't this make fifth a call?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't see its fault

[/ QUOTE ]

So the pot is giving you 2/1 and your odds are 3/1, why do you want to take that?

Also, against this player you can find much better spots. Play when the odds are in your favour, not against you.

It turned out OK this time, but I think it is a -EV.

PS: I play at much lower stakes and am probably a bit more tight.