TOP: HU on the end concepts

maverickai · #1 10-01-2007, 12:11 PM

Here are some concepts which I am confused in TOP.

Pg 202 (bottom of pg) mentioned, "you must figure your hand has better than a 50-50 chance of winning when you are called."

Pg 205 (near bottom of page) mentioned, "you do nnot have to be over 50 percent to justify a call. All that's necessary is that the pot odds you're getting are better than your chances of winning in the showdown.".

What I don't understand is how come if you bet, you have to be more than 50% fav to win, but when calling, you look at pot odds? I thought you always make reference to pot odds?

jay_shark · #2 10-01-2007, 08:35 PM

You shouldn't bet as an underdog if you don't have to .

Ie , if you're on the river and you're first to act , then lets say your hand strength is 80 on a scale of 1-100 . If your opponent will only call with hands 61-100 , then you lose to 20 hands but beat 19 hands . So this particular bet is actually negative EV even though the aggregate EV may still be positive .

Does that make sense ?

mykey1961 · #3 10-01-2007, 09:39 PM

No Jay, that doesn't make sense.

Your example gives the "first to act" player a ton of fold equity which your 20/19 ignores.

jay_shark · #4 10-01-2007, 09:54 PM

Mykey , I'm just referring to the actual bet itself . I never said you should necessary check.

You never have to bet as an underdog if you don't have to. I also never said you should check and call either . You have to know more information on your opponent to determine whether betting as an underdog is the right play or not . Again , this is all explained in the Theory of Poker .

jay_shark · #5 10-01-2007, 10:02 PM

Mykey , you probably didn't understand my last sentence either . I'll repeat it again :

So this particular bet is actually negative EV even though the aggregate EV may still be positive .

Your aggregate EV considers the overall net result which also includes fold equity .

mykey1961 · #6 10-02-2007, 01:53 AM

That's odd, because without the bet, you don't have fold equity.

Kimbell175113 · #7 10-02-2007, 02:01 AM

mykey, fill in the blank:

For a call, you are choosing between putting in a bet and giving up the pot.

For a bet, you are choosing between putting in a bet and _______.

mykey1961 · #8 10-02-2007, 02:56 AM

giving my opponent a free shot at the pot.

maverickai · #9 10-02-2007, 11:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You shouldn't bet as an underdog if you don't have to .

Ie , if you're on the river and you're first to act , then lets say your hand strength is 80 on a scale of 1-100 . If your opponent will only call with hands 61-100 , then you lose to 20 hands but beat 19 hands . So this particular bet is actually negative EV even though the aggregate EV may still be positive .

Does that make sense ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct me if I am wrong... does it refers to the EV of river bet itself, and not taking into the consideration of the pot? So your 'negative EV' refers to the river bet, and 'aggregate EV' refers to the the entire bet, with the pot?

However for calling, we have to consider the pot size too to estimate your chances of winning?

jay_shark · #10 10-02-2007, 11:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You shouldn't bet as an underdog if you don't have to .

Ie , if you're on the river and you're first to act , then lets say your hand strength is 80 on a scale of 1-100 . If your opponent will only call with hands 61-100 , then you lose to 20 hands but beat 19 hands . So this particular bet is actually negative EV even though the aggregate EV may still be positive .

Does that make sense ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct me if I am wrong... does it refers to the EV of river bet itself, and not taking into the consideration of the pot? So your 'negative EV' refers to the river bet, and 'aggregate EV' refers to the the entire bet, with the pot?

However for calling, we have to consider the pot size too to estimate your chances of winning?

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct!