Was I a donk?

[Seven_of_Cups]

I just really started playing Stud earlier this month and have fallen in love with it. I study Roy Wests book almost daily and have found it to be somewhat helpful. I haven't been winning but I attribute most of it to variance. Below is a hand that has me wondering how I played.

7 Card Stud High ($0.25/$0.50), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.40 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street - (6.40 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (5.70 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 8: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks

6th Street - (5.70 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls___calls
Seat 8: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds

River - (17.70 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___checks___folds

Total pot: (19.70 BB - $9.85)


I have been watching Seat 1 for awhile and I know he is extremely loose but was I wrong for raising on 6th. Any and all input is appreciated.

[Andy B]

I'd be tempted to raise on the backside on third street, but whatever. I would consider raising fourth. I would strongly consider betting fifth. Jamming sixth is good. Given your characterization of the bettor, I'd probably raise the river. You played this hand very passively. You should have been at least somewhat more aggressive.

I would attribute the fact that you're not winning less to variance and more to the fact that you're reading the wrong book and checking and calling a lot. Get 7CS4AP and bet your damned hand already.

[electrical]

You have a value raise on Third. Making it also alerts your opponents that you have a hand, and you wouldn't mind one or (rarely) two of them folding weak hands here.

If bet in front of you on Fourth, raise for the same reasons. You have a good hand that doesn't want to play into a crowd, so try to make people either (A) fold or (B) pay.

On Fifth you have a big pair and an excellent draw, so bet. You shouldn't particularly care if nobody folds, though them folding would be nice, because your hand can stand almost any action here.

Sixth is a drag, because you played the hand so passively that seat One's raise doesn't necessarily mean a big hand, almost forcing you to put in all the action he wants. He would be correct to raise with Aces-up or trips here if he thinks you would fold a bare four-flush some modest percentage of the time, and the cap makes me hate your hand.

You need to bet strong hands both because you get more money in the pot and because it makes it easier to play your hand. The truism that poker is a game of information doesn't imply that you should avoid letting your opponents have any information, only that you should choose what information to give them. In the case of a big pair, you want them to know that they are behind and will be committing a lot of chips to try to run you down.

[chucky]

In agreement with other posters, play this hand more agressively. raise 3rd. Semi exposing your hand is fine if you limit the field. Raise 4th. 6th is fine.

[Poker CPA]

3rd Street is fine. You could make a case that the hand was played perfectly, but you need to explain your thinking. What was your game plan on each street?

And this

"In the case of a big pair, you want them to know that they are behind and will be committing a lot of chips to try to run you down."

This is weak/tight thinking. I love playing against this style.

[Andy B]

So you're saying that you shouldn't play big pairs aggressively early?

[Poker CPA]

So you're saying that you shouldn't play big pairs aggressively early?

As it applies to this hand, the call on 3rd is fine because it closes the action and his door card is semi dead. A R will generally not knock anyone out and it sets up a big pot
if the spike hits. Lets see 4th with deception and then play accordingly.

On 4th I don't like the A, 6 and the 2nd J falling. And the A bets out. Call is OK

On 5th, the Check is fine IF OP plans to CR. I would go for the CR myself. THis CR is scary and will fold hands, maybe take the pot right there.

[electrical]

[ QUOTE ]
As it applies to this hand, the call on 3rd is fine because it closes the action and his door card is semi dead. A R will generally not knock anyone out and it sets up a big pot

[/ QUOTE ]
In most cases, I agree with you, but these are little and dead door cards in the pot. It's worth a raise, both because you have the best hand and because you want a hand like (5A)5 to fold.

[ QUOTE ]
if the spike hits. Lets see 4th with deception and then play accordingly.

On 4th I don't like the A, 6 and the 2nd J falling. And the A bets out. Call is OK

[/ QUOTE ]
Why is the call okay? Is hero behind to a pair of Aces? Then he should fold. Is hero behind to dead Jacks-up? Then he should raise. I don't see why calling does anything but get hero in deeper with dead sideboards against a big field. Raising is the play. Hero's hand is also developing flush potential in a way that a free card on Five might be useful, and hero will be in position on Five unless he improves his hand, at which point betting-out will take the pot much of the time.

[ QUOTE ]
On 5th, the Check is fine IF OP plans to CR. I would go for the CR myself. THis CR is scary and will fold hands, maybe take the pot right there.

[/ QUOTE ]
When a paired door checks, passive players with medium strength hands check behind. There is virtually no chance that Hero will get to check/raise once he checks. If there is a bet, there is a good chance that the Deuces will C/R, and then what does hero do, pay the maximum for his draw or fold? Betting out is the play.

[Poker CPA]

5A5 will never fold!!!

What Aces?????? Only one Ace out. On 4th, OP is the 4th caller and is not going to push anybody out. This a 5 way action hand, lets see what 5th brings to the table. OK is just OK, its not a default play. Just as a Raise would be OK too, in this situation. Hero's 4th street thinking would be never to give a free card on 5th, much less take one on 5th from the bottom of the order. The free card is out of play in your 4th st thinking. The paired 2 changed that, but it did set up the CR. Very rare that three players get rattled by a semi dead pair of 2s and check to a losing stud player. So your statement

"There is virtually no chance that Hero will get to check/raise once he checks."

I find to be a little hard to believe (but it did happen). Your assuming the players are passive, yet you don't know that information, only that seat 1 is a loser. I'm assuming if the OP knows this, then the rest of the table does too and will act accordingly.

If the 2s CR, I RR, its that simple. Easy HU hand now. The 2s will never bet into HERO on 6th, Thus our free card, if we like.

And finally, I would like to know what the OP was thinking when he made his actions.

[PoorLawyer]

I think 5th is pretty bad. you have a paired door card check and are holding a 3 flush ..I am not counting on someone to bet the hand for me so I can raise. Just bet out and most will fold. Even if everyone calls you have a great draw.