how do we play the turn 88 facing 2 overs?

[hamnegger]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

UTG (t2895)
UTG+1 (t1630)
MP1 (t1240)
Hero (t1810)
MP3 (t2500)
CO (t1295)
Button (t1265)
SB (t1025)
BB (t2855)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t100</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t100, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, BB calls t50.

Flop: (t325) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t100</font>, Hero calls t100, BB folds.

Turn: (t525) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero ?

2 questions: flop call ok? what are we doing with turn and why?

[Sherman]

Flop call is ok. If you get an over-caller you are pretty much done after that.

I bet the turn to: 1) Protect what may be the best hand right now against a hand with outs. 2) Bluff out a better hand (e.g. 99-TT,AJ).

Sherman

Edit: To point out that we have other reasons for better the turn as well. We have position which means we may have the option to check/behind for a showdown on the river. Also, our specific holding (88) doesn't really mind getting check/raised on the turn as it almost always means we are beat and can safely fold. If we had a hand that had more ways to improve, we may check behind on the turn more readily.

[BarryLyndon]

I kinduv agree with sherman, but stacks are shallow, and I'm wondering what bet size you need to both optimize bluff value against AJo (btw, folding out AJ is wishful thinking) while at the same time not spewing too many chips. fwiw, more combos of AK/AJ/KQ are than 99/1010. You protect against AQ or A10 + get value out of them. I'm not sure if A10 uses this line, AQ probably does. Hmmmmmmm...~250 sounds about right.

Barry

Barry

[Alex_Rules]

Get off the roids Barry.
250 is right, AJ isn't folding, but there's value from AQ and it should be enough to buy you a showdown on the river.

[tomek322]

Interesting hand... For everyone saying to bet this, obv repping some sort of FD with a king in it. Are we shoving river if he calls and checks the river?

[JammyDodga]

I think we have to fold this flop. I think with these stacks/blinds I'm still in the stage where I'm playing pretty much for set value only.

I know that we have the best hand pretty often here, but I think our negative implied odds are too bad. We will have to put a fair few chips in the middle to find out where we are, and we are never going to win a big pot here. We either win a small pot or lose a medium pot at best (assuming we can get away from it later)

I know this is pretty nitty, but I think this is all about information and the cost of obtaining it.

[usha]

Why not reraise flop to 400? The minraise and the weak flop bet look really weak donkish. If you get a call, shutdown, but otherwise I have a reason to believe we have the best hand, and seeing the turn will suck most of the time.

As played, I would bet 300 on turn.

[BarryLyndon]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not reraise flop to 400? The minraise and the weak flop bet look really weak donkish. If you get a call, shutdown, but otherwise I have a reason to believe we have the best hand, and seeing the turn will suck most of the time.

As played, I would bet 300 on turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Call the 100 because you will pretty much know where you are at based on what UTG does on the turn. The K is a scary card in that he may be slow playing AK/QK now, but by betting 300 (a better number), we only need to win the pot 36% of the time to be happy. Since AJ probably bets stronger and AK probably fires again, we can center our range around 99/88/1010/AQ/A10 enough of the time to make a profitable bet here for value or for bluff. Interestingly enough, if AQ/A10 comes for the ride with 10 outs, that's fine, since they are making a mistake by calling and aren't gonna know wtf to do on the missed river. Doesn't seem like UTG is firing if he misses. If he RRs or bets, fine, let it go. It's still a profitable play to bet here.

Barry

[usha]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why not reraise flop to 400? The minraise and the weak flop bet look really weak donkish. If you get a call, shutdown, but otherwise I have a reason to believe we have the best hand, and seeing the turn will suck most of the time.

As played, I would bet 300 on turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Call the 100 because you will pretty much know where you are at based on what UTG does on the turn. The K is a scary card in that he may be slow playing AK/QK now, but by betting 300 (a better number), we only need to win the pot 36% of the time to be happy. Since AJ probably bets stronger and AK probably fires again, we can center our range around 99/88/1010/AQ/A10 enough of the time to make a profitable bet here for value or for bluff. Interestingly enough, if AQ/A10 comes for the ride with 10 outs, that's fine, since they are making a mistake by calling and aren't gonna know wtf to do on the missed river. Doesn't seem like UTG is firing if he misses. If he RRs or bets, fine, let it go. It's still a profitable play to bet here.

Barry

[/ QUOTE ]

Why give both villains a free card when we probably have the best hand right now, but could be WB on so many over cards that could show up on turn? UTG could be donk 2 barreling small again on a higher-than-8 turn and we would be in a much tougher spot there. Even if UTG will check the turn it won't ensure us that we have the best hand because he might hit and decide to slow play or something stupid. I think our motivation should be to end this hand as soon as possible with the pot going our way, and not risking ourselves going into a tough turn situation which will be risking a great portion of our stack.

[kenny7]

After reading all this I agree with betting the turn. Ironically,my first instinct would be to happily check here,taking a free card,hoping to see a cheap showdown,keeping the pot small etc.I mean,we might have the best hand here,we might not,so if we can get to the river for nothing....

I see though that that has to be wrong.Min preflop raise,I doubt that he would do that with a big hand(do they ever?) so I'm not too worried about a slowplayed AK. Anyway,a bet here would definately help us define his hand. If he calls or c/r I assume we are done. Can't believe he'd ever bluff c/r in this situation,and if he calls,we are beat and I doubt any river bet will make him fold. What I'm sure of is that there are a few hands that has us beat he'll fold to a turnbet here. 99-TT for sure.

This is a great post btw. Deceptivly simple hand I guess they call this....I would think that situations like this come up alot in every tourneys,and playing these hands correctly will help us accumulate a little bit o'chips here and there. Great post,great replies.