.25/.50 Noob Questions

JH1 · #1 09-25-2007, 09:46 AM

I'm really struggling to grasp this limit game after playing NL for the past 3 years. I am including results for the first hand here as I am more interested in what villain's thought process is rather than how I played the hand. I know I played it pretty poorly because just about every draw got there.

The second hand I am trying to see if this makes sense when I apply the same style of play.

I often find myself wondering what they are still doing in the hand. I am also currently reading SSHL and still trying to apply it. Am I correct that limit is more about drawing out to the better draw whereas NL is more about denying pot odds - ie. I can't control pot odds as much? Seems like TP/TK type hands don't have nearly as much value as they do in NL. I'm just having a really tough time with people holding on to bottom and middle pair trying to catch 2 pair and an even tougher time holding onto those hands myself.

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.25/$0.5
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
4 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.4SB, 2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3.2BB, 2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

River: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7.2BB, 2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 9.2BB

Villain shows J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.25/$0.5
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
6 folds, Button raises, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6SB, 3 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Button folds, Hero calls. I figure he could have Ax, 8x a draw, or air.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero calls. Now I've got an OESD and I'm getting 6:1 plus implied odds.

River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Results:
Final pot: 11BB

ACG2x · #2 09-25-2007, 09:58 AM

Hand 1: Raise the flop. You have TPGK and it's a draw heavy board. Make him pay to draw out. As far as the river card - variance is a bitch, huh? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] The way the hand played, it didn't seem like villan was going anywhere, but you have to stick in a raise on the flop.

Hand 2: Don't bet this flop. You are OOP to a PFR with an underpair to two flop cards. Also, if you figured he could have Ax or even an 8, why call the extra SB? I don't know what draw he'd be raising you with the PFR in between except maybe 6-7 and you have two 7's.

You're getting a decent price, but we're essentially drawing to two outs here or r/r. Action from the turn on as played is fine. As far as the river card, variance is a bitch, huh? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

JH1 · #3 09-25-2007, 10:03 AM

Thanks for the advice. Any ideas on what villain in hand 1 is thinking and is this standard?

Edit: as far as raising that flop in hand 1. Is it more important to try to raise your opponents out than to try to disguise your hand and wait to put in the BB on the turn? I just find that so much of limit play basically turns your hand face up and I'll end up making the pot too big and he'll have odds to draw to whatever he's drawing to knowing what I have. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

JH1 · #4 09-25-2007, 10:47 AM

One more question. Is it standard to hold on to overcards on a ragged flop facing one bet giving you 3-4:1. I see this being done a lot and it doesn't make sense to me given that you need ~8:1 to make this reasonable.

Ricks · #5 09-25-2007, 11:53 AM

Hand 2:

This is a clear 3-bet against a Btn steal. Calling allows the BB to play getting 5:1. It is much easier to win with pocket sevens against one player rather than two. You would prefer the BB to fold and leave the dead money in the pot with you as the favorite against Btn's range.

sean c · #6 09-25-2007, 11:58 AM

JH1,

Welcome to limit. Anything below 2/4 should probably go in the micro limit forum.

Hand #1 is fine and most villians at .25/.50 don't think.

Hand #2 was played pretty bad. You really need to be 3-betting this pre flop. Its rarely correct to cold call an open raise from a late position player from the small blind. You want to 3-bet or fold most of the time. Cold calling gives the BB great odds to come along and with 77 against a pretty wide range from a button open raise you likely have the best hand and want to be playing this heads up. I'm not betting the flop and I'm not calling the raise either. The turn and river are fine.

Mitke · #7 09-25-2007, 01:12 PM

A lot of limit play in the lower limits concerns value betting when ahead - even if you can't force opponents to make a mistake when calling you still have to charge them as much as possible for the draw.

-> I'd raise the flop in the first hand. Board is drawy - he's gonna pay and you might even get to 3-bet.

Waiting to turn has its merits in this spot also but your TPGK probably has too much equity here HU to give it up on the flop.

If you thought of the SSHL examples on waiting for the turn to raise the difference here IMO is that TPGK is a much stronger hand than TT in the other example (if I remember them right).

As far as the Villain's play goes, I'm not sure what he was thinking donking the flop. Maybe he considered the flop scary and decided to semibluff with his pair+draws to a gutshot and trips or two pair.

Nothing to add to the hand number 2 that's not been already pointed out.

Don't worry too much about disguising your hand at these limits. Just bet your hands for value - they're going to hang in there anyway, with or without proper odds. As far as I understand (and may not be much and much less in NL), pot control is not an issue fixed limit.

BigBadBabar · #8 09-25-2007, 02:01 PM

jh1 - a bad beat doesn't mean you played it poorly, fyi

Aaron W. · #9 09-25-2007, 02:08 PM

I didn't really read the hnds.

[ QUOTE ]
I often find myself wondering what they are still doing in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're donating.

[ QUOTE ]
I am also currently reading SSHL and still trying to apply it. Am I correct that limit is more about drawing out to the better draw whereas NL is more about denying pot odds - ie. I can't control pot odds as much? Seems like TP/TK type hands don't have nearly as much value as they do in NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought TPTK type hands in NL were trap hands because it's hard to get away from them even if you know you're likely beat.

Limit hold'em at these levels is about milking money out of players who are willing to call down with worse hands than yours by value betting often. At higher levels you can start to think more about making players fold better hands. And it seems to me that the higher levels are also more about making your opponents bet worse hands than yours.

Xylocain · #10 09-25-2007, 02:13 PM

Hand1
Raise flop wtf? Then bet turn and call river donk.

Hand2
3-town because its a steal situation, then bet any flop. With that ace on board you are pretty much done if you get played back at.

Someone said that 0.25/0.5 players don't think. That is not correct IMO, but they are often wrong when they do. [edit] point beeing not that they are retarded but that they dont play well in marginal situations despite trying [/edit]