KK standard turn

[NinaWilliams]

Villain is unknown but I suspect that hes a LAG.

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
4 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (10SB, 3 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#cc0000">UTG 3-bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero caps</font>, SB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (11BB, 3 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG bets</font>, Hero AKJGSFALFKH

[ILOVEPOKER929]

Flop cap is bad IMO. Call 3bet and raise the turn is the play here. Given the bad turn card, just call down.

[vmacosta]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop cap is bad IMO. Call 3bet and raise the turn is the play here. Given the bad turn card, just call down.

[/ QUOTE ]
with the overlay from sb there I think our default should be to cap the flop. If we were hu I'd be more inclined to wait til the river to decide if I even wanna put in a raise. This smells like 99 a lot.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

[ QUOTE ]

with the overlay from sb there I think our default should be to cap the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly disagree. By the time the lag 3bets the flop this pot has grown to a very large size. If we make the basic assumption that the SB, who coldcalled the first time in a smaller pot not closing the action, will make the same investment essentially closing the action in a now larger pot if we cap, then calling the flop 3bet and raising the turn has to be the best play. Becuz of this large pot size, taking the line that maximizes our chance of winning this pot trumps any other line IMO. Calling the flop 3bet and raising the turn is the only line that gives us a chance to protect our vulnerable hand in this nice pot. The pure value to be gained by the call-raise turn line is also comparable to capping the flop, but the fact that we can protect our hand in the call-raise scenario but we cant in the cap flop scenario is crucial. The only time capping the flop will be the right play is if the SB is somehow that rare type of player that pays 2sbs the first time, but will now fold the 2nd time he's faced with investing 2sbs in a now larger pot.

This is the 2nd time this week I have went over this type of play and frankly I am surprised at how many 2+2ers are misplaying this type of spot. This is very basic Ed Millerian stuff IMO. To put it bluntly, it will be very rare when capping the flop with one pair will be the correct line, especially in a multiway pot. HU pots are a different animal becuz metagame/variation/how previous confrontations played out, now becomes a consideration. In multi-way large pots, the straight foward optimal line will almost always be the route you should take. Most of the time you will either be in a call-raise turn situation or a call down and pray situation. So if anyone caps the flop with one pair in a muti-way pot, chances are they did something wrong.

[Oink]

Should hero even put in another raise vs a thinking opponent? There isnt many draws he can be pushing here so unless he is overplaying Jx it looks like Hero is behind to a set or J9, no?

I realize that UTG is unknown but any thinking player should realize that when Hero raises the flop he has AJ or an overpair the majority of the time. Against a good player I would not put in anymore raises after the 3-bet unless I improved.


@ ILP

I understand your points and I like your post. But there is one point that you and others who argue for the "call flop, raise turn" line either miss or just ignore. The number of possible cards that may stop UTG from betting the turn is important. Whenever UTG checks the turn your plan is counterfeited and you cant make your protection raise. Even tho it may not happen often it really affects the EV of the call flop, raise turn line.

I agree that this is not so much of an issue on this flop that has few draws and few possible "freeze cards". But in general I think its a point you need to consider when deciding whether to cap the flop or "call raise turn".

Oh, and stop quoting Ed Miller. I dont care how many books he has written. Unless he shows results of beating high stakes online games I am taking the advice from good posters here on 2p2 over "Ed Miller" stuff any day.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

"Should hero even put in another raise vs a thinking opponent? There isnt many draws he can be pushing here so unless he is overplaying Jx it looks like Hero is behind to a set or J9, no?"

Thats the art of the situation. Like I said before, this is usually going to be a call-raise turn situation or call down situation. It is up to you to figure out which line is best. Obviously the laggier the opponent the more likely you should take the former line. My point is however that if you like your hand enough to want to cap the flop, then there is a better line.

"I realize that UTG is unknown but any thinking player should realize that when Hero raises the flop he has AJ or an overpair the majority of the time. Against a good player I would not put in anymore raises after the 3-bet unless I improved."

This tells me that youre approaching the situation with the right mindset and thats all tthat matters.


@ ILP

"I understand your points and I like your post. But there is one point that you and others who argue for the "call flop, raise turn" line either miss or just ignore. The number of possible cards that may stop UTG from betting the turn is important. Whenever UTG checks the turn your plan is counterfeited and you cant make your protection raise. Even tho it may not happen often it really affects the EV of the call flop, raise turn line."

I cannot quantify the drawback of this problem. Those times the hero believes another raise is justified, I think the pot is large enough that its still worth going for the turn raise strategy. Im convinced the call flop-raise turn strategy will win more pots in the long run than a cap flop line. The latter line usually involves 2 opponents seeing the river card, while the former has a real chances of getting this pot HU before the river. When the pot reaches a certain size it is this simple concept that should be guiding your play.

I think the largest drawback to this strategy is getting 3bet on the turn, not the villain checking the turn, but this just illustrates that no strategy is perfect. Theres always gonna be a potentional downside to every line you take.

"I agree that this is not so much of an issue on this flop that has few draws and few possible "freeze cards". But in general I think its a point you need to consider when deciding whether to cap the flop or "call raise turn"."

Obviously everything needs to be considered before we make any play. I simply believe that this valid point youre making will rarely be strong enough to outweigh the other reasons why a "call-raise turn" line strategically dominates a "cap flop line" in a pot this size, assuming the SB will not fold to a flop cap.

"Oh, and stop quoting Ed Miller. I dont care how many books he has written. Unless he shows results of beating high stakes online games I am taking the advice from good posters here on 2p2 over "Ed Miller" stuff any day."

My reference to Ed Miller is very appropriate here becuz were talking about a poker101 concept: Protecting your hand in large pots. Ed Miller is not the first to talk about this concept but I suspect that most players first read about this idea through him. The reason call-raising the turn here is a better line than capping the flop is the same reason call-raising the turn is the best line in SSH on page 163. Incidentally, that was a KK hand also.

[NinaWilliams]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the largest drawback to this strategy is getting 3bet on the turn, not the villain checking the turn, but this just illustrates that no strategy is perfect. Theres always gonna be a potentional downside to every line you take.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I capped the flop. I felt like with the 3rd guy in, i had enough equity to put in a 4th bet on the flop, but didnt want to face a turn 3 bet. Is this wrong?

[Gurravasa]

some real long posts here, are they worth reading or is it just another "jam flop or wait til turn" discussion?