Completing in the small blind (microstakes)

[Jailblazers]

In large multi-way pots that usually go to the river, is it profitable to complete in the small blind with ATC? If not, what is the cut off?

Also, is it good to call one raise in limit O8 in the big blind with ATC?

[Buzz]

Hi Jailblazers - "ATC" is an unfamiliar acronym to me. What does "ATC" mean? (My dictionary says "air traffic control" or "air traffic controller" but I'm guessing that's not what you mean).

In general, in my humble opinion, you need a very strong hand to compete from the small blind. If there have been no raises, it may look as though you are getting great odds to compete, but that is very deceptive. (Indeed you are getting great odds to see one more card - but the betting doesn't end after the first betting round, unless you go "all-in").

If you do complete the small blind and continue, you have to act first on every subsequent betting round. Acting first is a disadvantage.

Buzz

[bbartlog]

I would assume 'Any Two Cards', which in turn makes me wonder whether this is a LHE question that's been misposted.

[Buzz]

Thanks Bart. That makes perfect sense.

I guess we make it "AFC" for this forum.

Buzz

[Jailblazers]

Oh yea, sorry about the confusion, I did mean any four cards, just got mixed up because ATC sounds so much more familiar to me.

Anyway, so even though we're getting about 16-1 sometimes to see a flop, it is still not good to complete without a hand you would normally play. I assume this goes for Limit holdem as well? But not NL because in certain circumstances you can stack someone after flopping a monster. Am I correct?

[Micturition Man]

[ QUOTE ]

In general, in my humble opinion, you need a very strong hand to compete from the small blind.

[/ QUOTE ]


Just using logic how can this possibly be true? You think position is so huge that you need a "very strong hand" to play against some limpers for 1/2 price?

Or put another way you think if the SB got chucked out the window, limping for a small bet in that position with a not "very strong hand" has an EV of -1/2 a small bet or worse?

To the OP - In my opinion you need a reasonable hand to limp the SB, as in all limit games.

On the low side any 23, any 24, most 34's. On the high side any suited A or K, probably any three consecutive high cards, maybe 3 consecutive high cards with a gap and a flush draw.

Something like that.

[StrikeR300]

[ QUOTE ]
I assume this goes for Limit holdem as well?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd say even more so In O8, most of your most profitable hands will come from draws (which make the most, & lose the least in position). However, I'd find it hard to fold anything except dealt trips/quads if I'm actually getting 16-1 though [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] (nice table selection).

KFC FTW!

[wiseheart]

Limping junk in the SB will cause you to lose more in the long run. Sure you might go on a heater where you are flopping well, but in the long run you will lose money playing those junk hands.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Just using logic how can this possibly be true? You think position is so huge that you need a "very strong hand" to play against some limpers for 1/2 price?

[/ QUOTE ]Micturition Man - If you consistently make over $300K per year playing this game, then you must know it a lot better than I do.

But to answer your question, yes I think you do need a "very strong hand" to play against some limpers for 1/2 price.

And I think that because the cost of that first half price bet is only a fraction of what it actually costs you to play a hand.

As StrikeR writes:[ QUOTE ]
....most of your most profitable hands will come from draws (which make the most, & lose the least in position)....

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Or put another way you think if the SB got chucked out the window, limping for a small bet in that position with a not "very strong hand" has an EV of -1/2 a small bet or worse?

[/ QUOTE ]Yikes. I'm sorry I phrased it that way. Maybe "very" is too much. It sort of feels like too much when you keep throwing it back at me with quotes.

I'm not sure where you're getting the e.v. of -1/2 small bet. A trash hand is a trash hand because it usually doesn't connect with the flop and when it does, you often lose more than you bargained for by coming in second place.

That's what I see.

Is limit Omaha-8 the same game where you claim to have made over $300K/year for the past four years? If so, you know a lot more about it than I do.

Buzz

[Micturition Man]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just using logic how can this possibly be true? You think position is so huge that you need a "very strong hand" to play against some limpers for 1/2 price?

[/ QUOTE ]Micturition Man - If you consistently make over $300K per year playing this game, then you must know it a lot better than I do.

But to answer your question, yes I think you do need a "very strong hand" to play against some limpers for 1/2 price.

And I think that because the cost of that first half price bet is only a fraction of what it actually costs you to play a hand.

As StrikeR writes:[ QUOTE ]
....most of your most profitable hands will come from draws (which make the most, & lose the least in position)....

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Or put another way you think if the SB got chucked out the window, limping for a small bet in that position with a not "very strong hand" has an EV of -1/2 a small bet or worse?

[/ QUOTE ]Yikes. I'm sorry I phrased it that way. Maybe "very" is too much. It sort of feels like too much when you keep throwing it back at me with quotes.

I'm not sure where you're getting the e.v. of -1/2 small bet. A trash hand is a trash hand because it usually doesn't connect with the flop and when it does, you often lose more than you bargained for by coming in second place.

That's what I see.

Is limit Omaha-8 the same game where you claim to have made over $300K/year for the past four years? If so, you know a lot more about it than I do.

Buzz

[/ QUOTE ]


How about this: I put up $10,000 with any well-known poster in the HSNL forum on either Stars or FTP to your $1,000.

If I can demonstrate via PokerTracker data that I have made, say $2M in the last four years*, you lose the bet and never again direct your feeble sarcasm against me. If not you win.

Don't ask a question if you are only willing to believe one answer.


* I realize this is not quite the same claim as having made $300k+ per year for the last four years, but I'm not sure I can dig up my PT databases from 3-4 years ago.