need help with playing single pairs.

[RileyB1]

hey all, first post.

ok so after using PT to find my leaks i found that im not aggressive enough and that i loose A LOT of money on single pairs.

after replaying many of the hands i think that the big problem is staying with over cards i raised with preflop, when i dont get any part of the flop.

i do loose to not being aggressive enough with top pair and an ok kicker and i know i just need to push harder or get out. i also loose to pocket pairs and trips when the player calls every street.

so i guess the question is: if i raise pre flop from good position with big broadway and dont hit the flop (ie: over cards and no strait or flush draw) do i make it one bet on the flop when checked to me then check/fold the rest of the way if i dont take the pot right then or do i check on the flop and hope for a pair or draw on 4th st then start fireing, or is thier something else i should do?

i gueess i could also check/fold on the flop if i dont hit anything. its just hard to pass when i raised pre flop.

so... please help with how to play big broadway and a bad flop.

thx,
-Riley

[Albert Moulton]

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so... please help with how to play big broadway and a bad flop.


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Limit? Or NL?

heads up? 6-max? or full ring?

blinds and max buy-in?

typical effective stacks (in other words, do most players buy-in for the max, or for partial buy-ins)?

And are you talking about UTG, UTG+1, and UTG+2 when no one has raised before you and you have one or more callers between you and the button?

So, despite all that, at 10-handed NL cash games at 1/2 and below on-line in UTG and UTG+1 if UTG folds, and probably even UTG+2 if folded to you, I'd just fold big unpaired broadway cards other than AK. And AKo I'd typically raise, but occaisionally limp/reraise as if I had a big pair.

If you do want to raise with hands like KQs, then make sure they're suited and connected. Avoid KQo, KJo, QJo, QTo because they will just get you into trouble and you get them too often.

With a hand like KQs, if you choose to raise preflop instead of fold from EP, then c/f a low, coordinated flop if you have no draw, no pair, and 3 or more passive players who called your preflop raise, but c-b if you have a flush draw+over cards or top pair good kicker. But don't fall in love with TPGK. Frequently check the turn and c/c or b/f a blocker at the river to keep the pot small.

Heads up on the flop, almost always cb a ragged flop that isn't monotone containing one broadway and 2 low cards. J72r is perfect for a c-b no matter what you hold if you're in EP as a preflop raiser heads up at the flop. Occasionally be willing to check/call top-pair on the flop, then lead the turn, and maybe c/c the river for small amounts to keep the pot small and get lower pairs to look you up and some missed draws to bluff.

The point is, at FR, (1) fold more preflop from EP with unpaired broadway cards, especially if they are not both suited AND connected; (2) avoid continuation bets into large fields of guys who have position on you if you have nothing but missed overcards, especially if the flop is all T or lower (since that will hit a lot of small pairs and connectors, but obviously miss a hand like AK or AQ); (3) always c-b heads up or 3-way if the flop is somehting like 37Q and isn't monotone because usually only sets and TPGK hands (which it is likely no one has) will call; (4) sometimes mix up your c-b on hands where you hit top-pair heads up vs a tricky opponent by checking the flop and leading the turn, then c/c'ing the river, because he may mistake the check for missed overcards and look you up on the turn or bluff at the river with worse than top pair (whereas he would have likely folded those hands to an immediate cb); (5) try to control the pot - if the pot gets too big and you are OOP, especially vs a straightfoward opponent, then fold your top-pair good kicker hands because they are probably beaten. "Too big," in general, would probably be when you have to commit more than 1/3 of your stack to stay in the hand (assuuming that the effective stacks are 100+bb - it is a different story with short stacks and/or big blinds and antes relative to stacks).

6-max is a diffent story. I have no good advice for that.

[RileyB1]

thaks for the reply,

since i suck and mostaly donate my bankroll to ther players i play full ring, .25/.50 limit holdem. i normaly buyin for 10 BB's.

a couple of questions (sorry i couldent find the answere in the faq).
what do you mean by "c-b"? is that check then bet, check or bet, or check then raise?

further explenation. when i play offsuit broadway i only play it in late position, like button or 1-2 off button. I normaly raise if im first in with everything from AKo-QJo. i tend to call with things like KTo,QTo,ATo if 2-3 people have already called (is this a good play?).

if i understand you corectly i should not be playing offsuit broadway one gaps at all. or are you saying to call with them for one bet and pump or dump on the flop if i hit a hand.

also if i shoud not raise with offsuit broadway in late position, what should i raise with?

thx again,
-Riley

[Albert Moulton]

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what do you mean by "c-b"?

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In this context, I meant "continuation bet." If the preflop raiser bets first on the flop, it is called a "continuation bet" since he is continuing his preflop raise with a post flop bet. Often, players in EP ('early position') who called a raise from the blinds or limp/called an LP ('late position') raise will "check to the raiser" in expectation of a 'c-b' (or 'cb' or 'cont. bet' etc.). At that point, OOP ('out of position') player will fold or c/r ('check/raise') or call. It is usually a good practice to make continuation bets, but there are times, like the ones I described in my earlier reply, when it might be better to just c/f ('check/fold') (i.e. you are in EP with 3 or more calling stations between you and the button and you totally missed the flop on a low, coordinated board).

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I normaly raise if im first in with everything from AKo-QJo. i tend to call with things like KTo,QTo,ATo if 2-3 people have already called (is this a good play?).

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Many good players can play loose. "Loose" at full ring is a V$PIP (money voluntarily put in the pot) of more than 20%. As a beginner trying to play tight aggressive (TAG), you should play much tighter. Try for 12% - 15% V$PIP for starters. That means FOLD all that unsuited broadway junk except AKo. Don't call a raise with any of that stuff, even in position. And don't call a raise out of position with AKo - reraise or fold. For example, if a tight UTG raises, there is one caller, then you have KQs in the cut off, then call. If you have KQo, then fold. If you have KQs in the big blind in the same scenario, then fold - you will be out of position.

And I wouldn't play KTo,QTo,ATo at all if I were you. In fact, I'd recommend you fold them in the small blind. Maybe you could play them on the button if the pot isn't raised, or you could call a raise if you had the button and it's multi-way--but even then you'd be safer to just fold until you are better at post-flop play. These are all top-pair weak kicker hands that will get you into trouble, especially if you are out of position.

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if i understand you corectly i should not be playing offsuit broadway one gaps at all.

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Yes. As a guy trying to learn TAG play at full ring on-line, I would recommend you don't play that junk at all.

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also if i shoud not raise with offsuit broadway in late position, what should i raise with?

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Well, in general, a low stakes FR on-line games, start out by just raising for value with big pairs and AK. And don't slow play AA or KK preflop. You will find guys willing to gamble stacks with a range as wide as AQ-AK, JJ-AA.

AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT,AK.

You can also raise with AQs and KQs from late position to attempt to buy the button (make the guy(s) between you and the button fold so you act last post flop). Sometimes, if there is a weak player who limped in front of you who calls too much preflop and folds too much post flop, you can raise with speculative hands, like J9s to buy the button and (hopefully) isolate the bad player. If he calls, you can c-b and win almost every flop. And if he calls or c/r's your c-b, then you have a well-disguised hand the MIGHT have flopped a big hand or big draw.

Unfortunately "it all depends," and some of the more creative raising and reraising situations are probably not worth worrying about while trying to play tight aggressive low stakes on-line poker at multiple tables. Also, buy No Limit Holdem Theory and Practice for a good discussion on when and why to raise preflop.

As for reraising, you can reraise from out of position with AK (sometimes, if the raiser if VERY tight, you can even fold this out of position to a big raise), QQ-AA.

And, generally, don't call a preflop push after a raise/reraise/push while you hold QQ or less (that includes AK, for example) vs a tight full ring player. Only call that kind of 4-bet push with KK/AA (in general - there are always excpeitons to any rule).

Basically, if most of your opponents aren't very sophisticated, then you want to get $ in preflop with good hands that hold up well post flop. And you want to get in for cheap preflop in good position so you can jam your stack in post-flop when you have a set, a straight, an open ended straight flush draw (OESFD), or top 2-pair vs a likely overpair, etc.

If you take all this advice, and furthermore avoid open limping in EP and MP, then you end up playing very few hands (like 12%). And most of those hands will be in good position post flop. That is a good place to start learning ABC NL hold em.

[jmitchell42]

does most of that same advice apply to learning ABC micro-limit?

[RileyB1]

cant tell you how much i appreate your replys.

im going to chew on all this for a while.

thx again,
-Riley

[Albert Moulton]

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does most of that same advice apply to learning ABC micro-limit?

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Most people learn the rules of the game first. They play and find that they enjoy it. They win some big pots. Then they play more games, and they play more hands. Next, they quickly find that they've lost a lot of money. So they read some books. And, having read those books, the first thing they do is play tighter. And since they have bettter starting hands that play better pre- and post-flop, they get more aggressive. So, since they start with better hands in better positions than their opponents, and since they are betting and raising more with the best of it, they inevitably start to make a little money.

After that, they need to start paying attention to implied odds and reverse implied odds. They need to learn hand reading and post-flop play. They need to learn how to use position as a weapon. They need to learn how to prevent tricky players from using position as a weapon against them. They need to start applying multiple level thinking vs better opponents. And they end up trying to get better over the rest of their lives one hand at a time.

But the very first step is to play tighter and more aggressively from better position. And that's true at any level. The main problem is that many guys who are new have a misunderstanding of just how tight "tight" really is. For example, when I first started playing, I thought raising AJo UTG was "tight." But, in fact, that is actually quite loose by full ring standards.

So, to answer your question, "yes."