KK, QQ

iknowayuppynerd · #1 08-28-2007, 09:03 PM

I was midway through a live STT 10 plrs with 6 left, and a TAG player raises 3x BB preflop from mid position. The table had folded to him, and I was on the button with QQ. It was folded to me, we were both pretty well stacked (though he had me covered), and I pushed all-in preflop to have him contemplate for a little bit and call me. He showed down KK, and I was beaten.

I feel like even if I had simply called or reraised the pot, I'd have been all-in after the flop anyway. What should I have done differently, and how could I avoid this ending in the future? (Thank goodness it was only a $10 buy-in instead of a $1000 or even more on the WPT). Thanks.

xxGreat1xx · #2 08-28-2007, 09:19 PM

all depends on reads and stack size. If you have a big stack I would just re-raise to ~8x bb and if he comes over the top you are almost certain you are beat but you can save some chips. We need more information though.

iknowayuppynerd · #3 08-28-2007, 09:23 PM

The thing is I'm almost sure (past experiences) this player would have simply called had I reraised 8xBB. It's a good move, but a flop with unders and he goes all-in....????? Tight-aggressive player, mind you. I have to think I'm ahead with the QQ, but it's a really tough call. What do you think?

xxGreat1xx · #4 08-28-2007, 09:28 PM

I just find shoving over a standard 3x bb raise to be bad. If you lose over pair to bigger overpair then you were just destined to lose. But look at it this way, shoving here will break you if he has KK 4 out of 5 times b/c he will never fold preflop. But if you 3 bet it and he cold calls, then an A falls on the flop, you might very well win the pot with a c-bet. Or what if a Q falls and you stack him when you can get it in knowing you are ahead. If a K or A falls on the flop and he bets out then you can let it go and still be healthy

pzhon · #5 08-28-2007, 10:49 PM

In a normal tournament, there is rarely enough room to get away from QQ. You should focus on getting the most out of weaker hands, not try to create a way to fold a strong hand in case you are behind.

Gonso · #6 08-28-2007, 11:11 PM

When you say 'pretty well stacked', can you be more specific? What were the blinds/antes, and about how much was in your stack? This makes all the difference here.

If you're short enough, obviously you'd definitely be playing for stacks with QQ here - whether you get AI preflop or later is a secondary concern. If you felt that calling preflop would have committed you, you probably were too short.

On the other hand, if your dtack was relatively deep, you might have actually overplayed your hand. If you made a rediculous sized reraise here with a deep stack, that's a pretty big error against a given TAG.

DeuceSeven · #7 08-29-2007, 02:43 AM

Depends on how many bbs you have. Less then 15, I'm auto shipping this in. If you're both somewhat deep stacked, then it depends on how tight villain is. Most tight live players could have pps you beat, a big A, or a big K. It's hard to find too many spots where you can call pf and fold the flop. Most live games I play I auto raise with QQ, even the tight players because live players mostly suck.

PantsOnFire · #8 08-29-2007, 10:22 AM

Reraise is generally the right play. If a genuine TAG calls or reraises again, you might be in trouble. It also depends how he sees your image.

In an STT, there is a stack size where you could reraise all-in and a stack size where you could reraise 9xBB.

If you see a flop which is all undercards, there is a stack size where you will commit the rest of you chips and one where you could potentially get out of the hand.

Unfortunately, you need to be fairly deep to handle action on the flop and then end up giving up on your children. An A on the flop might have cooled the action. A K on the flop might have also saved you some chips. A Q on the flop might have won you a decent pot. All undercards are definitely tricky to play. You need reads to remember how villain played AK as overcards. If he has JJ or TT, he is likely thinking hard about your pf reraise and will test you without committing too many chips.

This is all good poker stuff. I would say in general that to get away from the situation you described, you would need a deep stack, have seen a flop and made a good read. Simply put, that's not easy but if you want to be a better player, start working on that sort of situation and that sort of thinking.

Edit: Also, having position would make more inclined to see a flop while being out of position makes me more inclined to take down the pot as soon as possible.

Edit2: These heads up situations with big PP and seeing a flop usually results in a way ahead/way behind situation. If TAG calls your reraise, then the only drawing hand he is likely to have is AKs. So when you play this sort of hand in position, use WA/WB tactics.

poker_bill · #9 08-29-2007, 01:47 PM

6 handed game, any pair is probably best. A standard raise like that could be anything from AA to A10s. With position, a reraise would probably be best to define your hand, and put him on the defensive. If a scary flop comes down, like a monotone flop, you may be able to get him to fold the best hand.