Does moving to bet force the bet?

LiveInPeace · #1 08-27-2007, 01:36 AM

If someone (at their turn to act) moves a handful of chips towards the middle holding them all the while, are they then required to bet, even if someone else calls quickly not allowing them to fully complete the betting action? What should a person do if he moves to bluff and then someone calls before he has completed his action? What is he entitled to do?

ra]\\[dom · #2 08-27-2007, 06:59 AM

I'm not live game expert, but there's usually a line on the table to where you are allowed to move chips without actual betting. Probably also depends on house rules.

Small Fry · #3 08-27-2007, 12:46 PM

A player doesn't bluff by grabbing a handful of chips and then moving them toward the center of the table like he's going to bet. This could easily be construed as a bet. Generally there is always a betting line, sometimes it's painted on the table, sometimes it's just a forward motion of your chips.

You don't say if this is a tournament or cash game (NL or Limit?) but either way at my home game I'd rule it a bet. Only difference between tourney and cash, assuming NL would be how much he bet. In a tourney unless you call the amount you need to move all your chips forward in one motion, so in this case everything he had in his hand would be his bet. In cash he could have a handful and count out some so here (based on info in OP) I would say his bet is the minimum. Of course if this is limit then his bet is fixed.

If you want to try to get a read you might grab some chips (to bluff like your going to bet) while observing your opponent but don't move them forward.

LiveInPeace · #4 08-27-2007, 06:22 PM

In my situation (cash game, pot limit) I fully intended to bluff but changed my mind at the last second since the other guy moved his chips in before I'd actually counted out any chips. He wasn't pleased at me changing to "check" once he'd begun moving chips in to call. I wasn't trying to pull anything or get any read but I felt I had the right to change my mind based on information he'd given me out of turn. I guess that's the whole question really, whether I have the right to change my mind at that stage.

Small Fry · #5 08-27-2007, 07:35 PM

With that description it sounds like you're angle shooting. You put chips out to guage your opponents reaction with the intent of possibly altering your play based on how he reacts. So if he looks like he's going to fold then you continue with the bet. But as you said he called so now you want to change your mind (becuase you are bluffing and got caught)and / or how much you were going to bet. Trying to pull it back will still get you required to make the bet but now all you can be forced to complete is the minimum bet, since the other player called before you had a chance to bet a specific amount. But if you had a lot more chips in your hand than the minimum if he was looking a little uncomfortable maybe you would have bet more, until you got to the level were you thought he would fold.

I agree he acted to soon, but with your forward motion of the chips I still say your bound to betting and required to put the minimum amount in. Obviously your action was enough for him to think you were betting. (Not that that is the deciding factor but it does give some indication of what was perceived. Other guy can only call minimum.

And you both get warnings about proper betting procedures. You about what actions constitute a bet and he about waiting his turn.

LiveInPeace · #6 08-27-2007, 08:21 PM

Small Fry, well I did not do it this way with the intention of altering my play or gauging his reaction. I fully intended to make the bluff. It's just that the extra information naturally caused me to be reluctant to make the bluff so then I changed plan. I had $50 in $5's in my hand and the minimum bet would have been $2. As it happens the dealer said nothing and allowed my check to stand. I'm not sure of the house rule in place for this situation, so I'm not at all sure I did anything wrong. Maybe it's ok in a cash game there to legitimately change my mind mid-way through acting. I don't know. Because I wasn't sure if I'd done anything wrong, I offered the guy the $50 after the hand (he refused it).

Gonso · #7 08-27-2007, 09:52 PM

If you make a significant forward motion with enough chips to roughly constitute a bet or raise, you're generally going to be bound to that action.
You should always to be clear as to your intent... problems always come up when someone's action is questionable. Make sure you speak up, stay in turn, and stay away from 'fake bets'. More often that not you'll be bound.

ahsfl · #8 08-28-2007, 12:16 AM

The casino I play regularly at rather than a betting line, its about if the chips are out in front of your cards. We've had a few newbs that have gotten in trouble with that by setting chips out to the side but beyond their cards in NL 1/2 and were forced to bet them in turn.

PantsOnFire · #9 08-28-2007, 12:33 AM

What you describe is not a normal poker move. It's similar to Michael Jackson dangling his baby over a balcony.

I would suspect that in most casinos you might get one warning and from then on it's a bet.

ELCowboy · #10 08-28-2007, 07:42 AM

OP...I usually play at Soaring Eagle in Michigan. They just got new tables with a line that MAY be considered a betting line, but for now they're leaving it up to the dealer's discretion. The general rule there is, if your action causes others to act behind you, your action is binding (unless verbally expressed, but why would you fold if you're moving your chips forward. I guess you could also call time...but that's a dumb move too). If you move your chips forward, hands on them or not, it's a bet/call, ESPECIALLY if the person behind you acts by calling/raising.