getting checkraised in NL

[Pyromaniac]

a theme of a lot of the discussion here seems to be about dealing with the unexpected checkraise. The generic situation is something like, you have position in the hand, you raised preflop, on the flop you've got something like TPTK or TPGK, there's a couple of others in the hand, you bet, the turn is something that seems harmless, you bet again, and someone wakes up with a big (3x yr bet) checkraise. Now what?

In Limit this isn't a big deal b/c it's just "hmm interesting" and -- if you have no idea what else to do -- ou can call the bet and re-evaluate on the river, and from there you can get to showdown for one more bet. In NL, though, this is the what-now??? moment -- you don't want to fold here if you've got the best hand against someone who's getting aggressive with a worse hand, but you don't want to pay off the turn checkraise and be faced with a bigger or all-in bet on the river against someone who has you crushed, either.

Obviously this is all very sitution-dependent, and that's why we discuss specific hands. And this can happen elsewhere in the hand, on the flop or river as well. I guess my question is, how do you deal with this -- feeling lost here? You feel like you're in control of the hand, and then suddenly, you're not...

[4_2_it]

Ah, finally we get to discuss the Baluga Theorem

[inferno]

I used to hate it when I got c/red in lhe now I do it non stop and kinda do it in NL allot also. I think leading is more the way to go in NL though.

[Grunch]

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Ah, finally we get to discuss the Baluga Theorem

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This will probably be one of the hardest adjustments for limit players to make. It was hard for the SSNL community to accept the idea even.

[Jamougha]

Well either he's bluffing or you're behind. You need a feel for how often those two things are happening. Usually fold is correc.

[AZK]

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Ah, finally we get to discuss the Baluga Theorem

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This will probably be one of the hardest adjustments for limit players to make. It was hard for the SSNL community to accept the idea even.

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even for you limit converts, that post is pretty retarded. his two examples are completely different and offer no real clarity if you are confused on calling check raises. A turn check raise in NL is sometimes a better hand, sometimes a worse hand, and sometimes a hand with decent equity against your hand. The smaller the stack, the more likely I am to call it. The crazier my image, the more likely I am to call it. The crazier their image, the more likely I am to call it. I wouldn't automatically decide what you are going to do now. It's a feel and history thing. Trust your gut more than the boards. Besides, after enough hands of NL, you will pick up a hand pre and already know how you are going to play flop, turn, and river.

[Grunch]

Well, I agree that just because you got 'Baluga'ed' doesn't mean you should automatically fold TPTK or the like. In that regard I agree with you AZK.

The value I think that the Baluga theorem brings is not so much a cookbook recipe of what to do -- rather it's the exposure to an idea that many people wouldn't even consider before. The idea that he is check-raising the turn for value with a hand that is strong enough to beat TPTK.

Before the theorem was floated, every time a thread appeared in SSNL where Hero had TPTK and was check-raised on the turn, the debate was between calling down and pushing the turn. Folding was not even entertained as a possibility.

These days honestly I think they have gone too far the other way, and people fold too much without regard to flow. But at least now they are considering the possibility. If this is the only function Baluga's post served, IMO it was not 'retarded'.

[Pyromaniac]

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Ah, finally we get to discuss the Baluga Theorem

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i feel like you just check-raised my thread [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

thanks for the link. reading & trying to absorb now.

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This will probably be one of the hardest adjustments for limit players to make. It was hard for the SSNL community to accept the idea even.

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There's nothing like it in limit. (i guess that's LDO) Moreover, in limit, you can pay the 2 BB and get to showdown and get some information, see what the villain was up to, and maybe learn something and be a little less lost the next time, fill in the blanks for "what kind of hand will villain do this with." Here, calling "just to see" is too expensive. But at the same time we can't be folding all the time in places where, as BalugaWhale wrote, "we are ahead of his range more often than not."

[Absolution]

Baluga seems like a good theory when your opponent is unknown. Once you have some reads on him then you can adjust. That's how I would approach it.

[diebitter]

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Before the theorem was floated, every time a thread appeared in SSNL where Hero had TPTK and was check-raised on the turn, the debate was between calling down and pushing the turn. Folding was not even entertained as a possibility.


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I think I remember this. It was one of the reasons I stopped using the forum, IIRR, cos it's so obvious that it should be a prime consideration.