NL25 Set with a flushed/coordinated board on the turn...

CazicT · #1 08-13-2007, 02:11 PM

Only 16 hands on the villian, nothing exceptional.

Am I committed here, what should I do? Bet/Call, Check/Fold, Check/Raise???

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($36.10)
MP1 ($36.90)
Hero ($26.90)
CO ($24.25)
Button ($47.25)
SB ($5.10)
BB ($26)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP1 calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, 1 fold, Button calls $0.25, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.25) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $1, Button raises to $2, SB calls $2, BB folds, MP1 folds, Hero raises to $7, Button calls $5, SB calls $2.85 (All-In).

Turn: ($-23.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero ...

Mike Kelley · #2 08-13-2007, 02:46 PM

I think this is a good case for raising pf with this hand. Tough decision. I'm getting it all in, If I'm beat, I'm beat, but i think raising this hand preflop is your best strategy.

seki · #3 08-13-2007, 03:42 PM

Ugly turn, but I'm going broke here. You only have a PSB behind, and you have top set. 22/55 and overpairs with a spade pay you off, and you still have 10 outs agains the flush/str8. There's just too much money in to find a fold. I also agree with Mike about raising pf to thin the field.

Albert Moulton · #4 08-13-2007, 03:45 PM

You can't afford to give villain a free card to a 4-flush on the river. You have to assume his range is wider than just a flush and a straight. He could have a lower set or 2-pair or a pair+draw or a mid-sized overpair with a spade, etc. So, given the size of the pot, just push the turn. You still have 20% to win if you are up against a flush or straight. And lower sets/2-pairs and hands with a single big spade might actually call, depending on the villain.

As for raising preflop, I don't like that as much as limping behind the open limper. You usually want plenty of players in the pot when you hit your set for cheap. Isolating the limper would simply maximize your chance of winning a small pot with a cb, or maybe running into a limp/rr that will force you to fold.

Albert Moulton · #5 08-13-2007, 03:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ugly turn, but I'm going broke here. You only have a PSB behind, and you have top set. 22/55 and overpairs with a spade pay you off, and you still have 10 outs agains the flush/str8. There's just too much money in to find a fold. I also agree with Mike about raising pf to thin the field.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thinning the field with 66 that's looking to flop a set doesn't seem as useful as looking to flop a set on the cheap and getting into a big pot vs lower sets, 2-pair hands, and big draws.

Just because this unusually coordinated flop puts OP in a bad spot on the turn does not mean that raising with a low pair is good. Raising to 5bb (for example) would probably just increase your chance of winning a small pot heads up with the open limper with a cb on most flops rather than winning a big pot when you flop a set in a mulit-way pot. I think your chances of winning a big pot are higher if its a multi-way pot.

Plus, there is no need to give the open limper a shot at limp/rr, or a guy in LP a chance to reraise you.

I suppose one exception might be to small-raise to try and build a bigger pot without risking very much. A min-raise would probably end up with the same number of callers and a bigger pot in which you'd be able to get close to all-in on the flop if the action proceeded like it did in OP, but with a pot starting at twice the size. And if you didn't hit the flop, there would be no need to cb since it would be multi-way, and you probably wouldn't have the best hand.

seki · #6 08-13-2007, 05:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ugly turn, but I'm going broke here. You only have a PSB behind, and you have top set. 22/55 and overpairs with a spade pay you off, and you still have 10 outs agains the flush/str8. There's just too much money in to find a fold. I also agree with Mike about raising pf to thin the field.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thinning the field with 66 that's looking to flop a set doesn't seem as useful as looking to flop a set on the cheap and getting into a big pot vs lower sets, 2-pair hands, and big draws.

Just because this unusually coordinated flop puts OP in a bad spot on the turn does not mean that raising with a low pair is good. Raising to 5bb (for example) would probably just increase your chance of winning a small pot heads up with the open limper with a cb on most flops rather than winning a big pot when you flop a set in a mulit-way pot. I think your chances of winning a big pot are higher if its a multi-way pot.

Plus, there is no need to give the open limper a shot at limp/rr, or a guy in LP a chance to reraise you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising with mid-small pairs there is not for set value. In a multiway limped pot, you thin the field, take aggression and win a large portion of pots with c-bets. Yes, when you hit a set, you might get paid less, and you occaisionally have to chuck it pre-flop to a good size 3-bet, but the number of small/mid size pots you pick up makes up for it. Bottom line is a winning player can play mid/small pps pre-flop both ways profitably, and should be mixing up their play regardless. I'd typically raise anywhere from 60-80% of the time pf in this situation.

[ QUOTE ]
I suppose one exception might be to small-raise to try and build a bigger pot without risking very much. A min-raise would probably end up with the same number of callers and a bigger pot in which you'd be able to get close to all-in on the flop if the action proceeded like it did in OP, but with a pot starting at twice the size. And if you didn't hit the flop, there would be no need to cb since it would be multi-way, and you probably wouldn't have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate a mini raise here. I also dislike sizing raises based on anything other than position and other players in the flop. If you're going to raise it, raise it like you would any other hand.