Check-Raising FlopvsTurn (No Hand Content)

[CaptVimes]

I was looking at this post

QQ Check raised on flop NL25

and I kinda got thinking about getting check-raised and what it means on different streets in the micro limits. I base all this on what I get when it is a decent, fairly aggressive taggy player I'm facing. A check-raise from a Donk could mean anything.

It seems to me that usually when you get checkraised on the flop its more of the villain saying, I have connected with the board or have an overpair to the board and I'm trying to get you off your hand while its still cheap. This seems especially true when you hit a low somewhat connected flop like the above example or there is a two-flush on the board.

A check-raise on the turn, once again from a decent player, is the nuts usually (or well, something that can beat a 1 pair hand but now isn't going to mess around with getting sucked out. This seems especially true if villain c/called the flop for a near pot sized bet. The other time this seems to hold true is when the flop has a 3straight or 3flush and gets checked through.

Anyway, I don't if I'm correct on this, probably not, but was hoping to stir up some discussion and others opinions. I know this is pretty basic, but its something that I'm trying to get my mind around.

[LearningCurve]

Thanks for thinking to start this thread, Vimes. Hopefully it will generate some interesting discussion, as I just don't have enough experience to know what it means generally. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

On the linked thread I suggested folding on the flop with insufficient stats and the idea that having a third guy in there seemed to make the show of strength more credible to me. However, I really do not have enough hands to be able to feel entirely comfortable with this advice. I do know a donk very frequently seems to be either tp or some sort of play to price in a draw, but a c/r on the flop I just haven't seen enough to really have a good feel for.

I agree with you that the turn raise generally means business.

Will be interesting to get some other opinions so hopefully some of the more experienced players will chime in.

[Landlord79]

I will confirm that the turn ck-raise is usually >2-Pair, so should we focus on the flop ck-raise then?

IMO the FCR is not nearly as strong as the TCR and can often be called w/ strong draws. I don't suspect the FCR to be any drawing hands since they are OOP and can't control the action anyway. Often you can take the pot away from them if they ck on the turn because they likely shot their load on the flop and figured out that you were strong. This may be giving too much credit to many 25NL players, but it's a few starter thoughts.

[mce86]

One of the reasons the turn check raise is more dangerous, is it usually is a much bigger portion of your stack. If you call a turn check raise, basically your getting your stack in there. You cant call many draws here(unless very deep). On the flop, there are two cards to come, and the cr is a much smaller bet. Its used more freely because of that reason, and its also used to tell the pre-flop raiser, you missed and I didnt, so fold.

[xxrod17xx]

What is so great when an Opp plays his/her hand in this fashion is that they give away the strength of their hand if it goes c/c on the flop and c/r on the turn. In my experience this is usually a pretty huge hand at the micro levels. So if you do happen to have the nuts its an easy shove over the top and ship it. This also gives you the ability to make big laydowns sometimes. When the opp plays their hand so open like this they are going against the Fundamental Theorem of Poker because they are letting us play correctly. This is one of the many reasons why I bet on every street when I flop a big hand because it gives a little more deception and if the villan does have a hand he will go with but possibly lay down if I show super strength like a turn c/r I tend to win more money.

[grouchie]

I've been finding that a decent amount of people, on the flop, are check min raising with any pair to see if you are going to fold your "missed AK" or whatever.

They have been doing the min, I'm assuming, because it's cheap and if you play back they can easily get away from it.
Or, because they are donks and that's what donks do.

So, I've been experimenting with just min raising them right back (turn that bitch into a limit game boyyyeeee) and usually get a fold out of them.

Turn check raise usually means you need to go away now, I have not donked away enough money to prove that one otherwise yet [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Landlord79]

[ QUOTE ]
So, I've been experimenting with just min raising them right back (turn that bitch into a limit game boyyyeeee) and usually get a fold out of them.


[/ QUOTE ]

What limits are you playing grouchie and what frequency are you winning with this play?

[crunny]

When villains c/r the flop its usually for information.

They either have TP/overpair/draw and want to see 'where there at' of course sometimes it is also a monster.