Triple value check?

Bond18 · #1 08-09-2007, 06:32 PM

Stars single rebuy add on. Setting up PAHUD as we speak so no real numbers/read. Thoughts on this absurdly passive/stationy line? I think his river over pot shove is very often a K or bluff, but seems that a K is often going to try and value bet me a good % of the time as well.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG+1 (t15000)
MP1 (t4550)
MP2 (t13347)
MP3 (t6350)
CO (t4969)
Button (t4153)
SB (t3815)
Hero (t12068)
UTG (t3725)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls t150, 7 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: (t375) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets t300, Hero calls t300.

Turn: (t975) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets t450, Hero calls t450.

River: (t1875) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets t2825 (All-In), Hero calls t2825.

Final Pot: t7525

shaundeeb · #2 08-09-2007, 06:36 PM

I really want to fold the river but never do. But I wouldn't be surprised at all to see KQ people been open limping that a lot at these middle buyin levels. He bets strong on flop to see if you have Ax and to protect vs flusdraw. He knows you have Ax or FD on turn bets small because he has the best hand and knows it. River comes he is hopping you have 4x or Ax and call his shove.

nath · #3 08-09-2007, 06:38 PM

lead the flop, fold the river

shaundeeb · #4 08-09-2007, 06:42 PM

I hate leading flop because people tend to bet this flop 100% so i rather get some value from their whole range.

I lead most turns but def not a K.

NoahSD · #5 08-09-2007, 06:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
lead the flop, fold the river

[/ QUOTE ]

mikeJ · #6 08-09-2007, 06:43 PM

I lead the flop too, because it prevents this situation, a giant pot OOP where you're not sure if he's bluffing or value shoving. Inducing bluffs is not always good.

On river, I prob fold.

KneeCo · #7 08-09-2007, 06:44 PM

I agree with SD, I'm having trouble seeing the hands you beat in this line, I just don't think he's triple barreling very often here. The one factor advocation believing that he's overbet bluffing 30bbs on the river that he's got a lousy Q at this point and that does make them go nuts sometimes, but it's not enough (esp since it might be that same mentality which causes him to overbet for value).

I think it's a fold, like the hand to that point though.

Bond18 · #8 08-09-2007, 06:44 PM

Can people elaborate why they like leading the flop a bit more? I feel like these days online everyone is so sick aggro/bluff happy that value checking is becoming increasingly viable.

Thoughts?

mikeJ · #9 08-09-2007, 06:51 PM

Checking isn't bad, I just prefer leading, fwiw.

The thing about leading is, you gain more info than if you check to him. Like Shaun said, a lot of limpers will just autobet the flop, so while you induce bluffs, you don't know much about his hand range once he bets, just that it's an incredibly easy call, this sometimes makes for tougher decisions down the line because you have less info about ur oppt's range, and the pot sizes are larger on avg when you check the flop.

WarDekar · #10 08-09-2007, 06:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I lead the flop too, because it prevents this situation, a giant pot OOP where you're not sure if he's bluffing or value shoving. Inducing bluffs is not always good.

On river, I prob fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

How the hell does leading the flop keep the pot small? What happens if/when he raises you?

On the river, WTF is he shoving here? A 4? No way, a K? No he's betting for value. AJ/AQ? Meh again he probably wants to get to showdown at this point, and unless you really think he's a good player who might shove AJ/AQ for value here then there's no way random Joe Blow is shoving those here...