Did Villian and Hero both play correctly?

kevinful · #1 07-31-2007, 10:01 PM

Cheap tournament, mid-tournament. 7 players. Just moved tables, it's a live game so this is an estimate on chips:

Seat 1 (under the gun): 6000
Seat 2: HERO 11300
Seat 3: 7000
Seat 4: 8000
Seat 5: VILLIAN 12500
Seat 6 (small blind): 5000
Seat 7 (big blind): 5000

Blinds: 300/600

Seat 1 folds.
Hero has Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero raises 1200.
Seat 3 folds.
Seat 4 folds.
Seat 5 (villian) calls 1800.
Seat 6 calls 1500.
Seat 7 calls 900.

Flop is 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero ALL-IN (9500)
Seat 5 (villian) calls.
Seat 6 folds.
Seat 7 folds.

Villian turns over A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Did Villian and Hero both play correctly?

kevinful · #2 07-31-2007, 10:05 PM

A couple little things I forgot:

Tournament was about 25 players down to 15. All players seemed tight-aggressive but I just moved tables.

hamnegger · #3 07-31-2007, 10:09 PM

12 outs to nuts he may have more i think both were correct plays

kevinful · #4 08-01-2007, 03:19 PM

It's a little discouraging when I can't complain about a bad beat nor say I'll do it differently next time!

I imagine it would have been a mistake for me to play the hand any more passively than I did?

Dunkman · #5 08-01-2007, 03:24 PM

Yeah I can't really imagine what either of you could have done differently.

Cornell Fiji · #6 08-01-2007, 03:25 PM

*sigh*

you're not looking for real advice are you?

your open shove is not optimal s it shuts down some hands that might have come along if you had led for 2500. it also shuts down hands like QJ that might semibluff you but would fold to a shove.

Obviously you should be thrilled to get your money in with the nuts and if you don't like sometimes getting your hand cracked then you should quit poker.

Please don't clog our forums with bad beat stories.

BigAlK · #7 08-01-2007, 03:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's a little discouraging when I can't complain about a bad beat nor say I'll do it differently next time!

I imagine it would have been a mistake for me to play the hand any more passively than I did?

[/ QUOTE ]

Draw heavy board, you've got the nuts now and any reasonable bet pot commits you anyway. More passively only makes it easier for him to get all his chips in. You played it fine.

You've got the worst possible hand for villian leaving him only 9 outs for the nut flush or 2 outs for a chop. Even if he knew exactly what you have he's got the odds to call. He could have reasonably thought that even if he was behind he had a few more than those 11. He played it fine too.

BigAlK · #8 08-01-2007, 03:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Draw heavy board, you've got the nuts now and any reasonable bet pot commits you anyway. More passively only makes it easier for him to get all his chips in. You played it fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Before Cornell calls me on it ...

I'll defer to him regarding the flop bet. My tendency would be to play it the way you did, but his point that the all-in will get hands to fold you don't want to is a good one. I was influenced by knowing what villian had (and he's coming regardless). For future reference NOT posting what villian had will get better advice. You should have ended the hand history on this post with your decision on the flop.

Dunkman · #9 08-01-2007, 03:42 PM

I totally disagree on the flop play, I think a push is less transparent than some small bet. I can't see a hand that will call a lesser bet but fold to a push, and although QJ may, I didn't see a read that villain was a loose fish, so I'm gonna assume he doesn't call raises from EP players with QJ. This board is terrifying for anyone who didn't get a large piece of it, I think pretty much every hand is either folding or looking to get AI on this flop.

Cornell Fiji · #10 08-01-2007, 04:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I totally disagree on the flop play, I think a push is less transparent than some small bet. I can't see a hand that will call a lesser bet but fold to a push, and although QJ may, I didn't see a read that villain was a loose fish, so I'm gonna assume he doesn't call raises from EP players with QJ. This board is terrifying for anyone who didn't get a large piece of it, I think pretty much every hand is
either folding or looking to get AI on this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that most hands that call the shove are getting the money in regardless. The only hands that I think inducing a shove makes sense for are Qx and small suited spades which maybe be priced out by heros shove.

The blinds could have AJ/QJ/QT/K9/67ss that doesn't realize its priced in; and the mp caller could have QQ/67ss. I think that these hands get it in against us anyway but we want to make sure that they get it in. There are a lot of live donks who will not call off their chips for their tournament life under any circumstances but will happily shove with no fold equity. Live donks also like to make big folds when put to a test for all their chips.

I think that the EV differential between open shoving and betting a pot committing amount is negligible but I think that betting less will work in our favor slightly more often than openshoving. In the end it is so close it is practically irrelevant.