20-40, Should I value bet these rivers?

[RobA]

In general I think I make my money pre-flop and on the flop. On the turn, the amount I dish out and take is probably about even. However, since I moved to 20-40, I think I get killed on the river.

Too often it feels like if I go for a thin value-bet I get raised, then can't fold. On the other hand, when I check the river it always seems like I missed value.

2 Hands from 20-40 at the Borg.

Hand 1: I have AK in EP3. I've been at the table only breifly. The two other players in this hand have not shown to be good or bad, or do anything out of the ordinary (except a cold-call on this hand). UTG limps, I raise, 2 cold-callers, BB calls and UTG calls. 5 to flop.

Flop AT3 rainbow. Check to me, I bet, CO calls, BB calls.
Turn - J to complete rainbow. Check to me, I bet, both call. River 2. BB checks. Is this an easy check? An easy bet? A bet/fold? A bet/call? Or where on that spectrum?


Hand 2: I have 88 in MP. EP3 limps (a regular, he's fairly tight pre-flop, but I suspect a loser at the game becuase I think he starts to loosen up near the end of his sessions and just seems to have the losing hand on the river a lot. I think he plays nearly every day though.) I limp in MP with 88. SB completes. BB checks.

Flop J65 rainbow - Check, Check, EP3 bets, I raise, fold, fold, EP3 calls.
Turn 2 completes rainbow - EP3 checks, I bet, he calls.
River J - EP3 checks. Is this an easy bet? An easy check? A bet/fold, bet/call? Or where on that spectrum?

Thank you very much for thoughts.

[surfdoc]

Against non-tricky opposition I think you can bet/fold both of these. Hand 2 is a little thin since you said he is tight he has to have A6 and pay you off. Would he limp preflop with 99 or TT?

[ProfessorBen]

Bet/fold both of these. Raise hand 2 preflop, but that is dependent on the position. It seems you are no more than 3 off the button, so I just raise.

[cgrohman]

Hand 1 is a supa-easy bet. You get called by all sorts of worse aces and occasionally a 10 or somethign like that.

Hand 2: I'd probably raise pre-flop. I'd check the river, I can;t see him calling with anything worse.

[drbk2]

Both are pretty easy bet/folds at the Borgata as you almost never get bluff raised or raised by anything worse while getting calls by a lot of hands you can't believe you got called by. Especially by the regulars, who all pretty much suck.

[DeuceKicker]

[ QUOTE ]
Too often it feels like if I go for a thin value-bet I get raised, then can't fold. On the other hand, when I check the river it always seems like I missed value.

[/ QUOTE ]I feel your pain.

Hand 1 seems pretty easy to bet/fold.

Hand 2 I'd probably check behind and not sweat it. He might have been betting the flop with a semi-weak J hoping you'd raise to protect his hand, and he's not too likely to pay you off with much that you can beat.

FWIW I think limping 88 after a tight limper is better than raising. It's not just a question of how close you are to the button, but how you stack up against his range knowing half the deck is an overcard, and also how many figure to be in the hand if you limp vs raise.

[blindside]

Hand 1: easy bet....


Hand 2: raise preflop.... bet the river, he will payoff with all sorts of worse hands...

[tessarji]

Hand 1: Clear bet-fold

Hand 2: If you have a solid image, I would check. It's too hard to get called by a low pair. I bet this all day, because my opponents think I am crazy and sometimes pay off with A high.

[pohuist]

I think you need to analyse if a river helped your opponents. In both of these hands, if your hand was no good you should've heard about it on the turn, while the river card doesn't figure to help anybody. The first hand is a clear bet. The 2nd is closer b/c your opponent will figure it did not help you either and will definitely call w/9-9 and 10-10, or may make a move on you. I would still bet but it depends on your read -- how likley is he to get tricky.

[RobA]

Thank you all for your thoughts. Everyone said hand 1 was a clear bet, some suggested some caution for hand 2. In both cases the hands checked though, and I won.

I had a run of betting TPTK hands from early position, into a field, getting raised, calling down and losing. So I sort of vowed to slow down on the river, out of position with TPTK kind of hands. Here, however, there was only one more guy to act behind me, and one already checked. And the river card was not scary. And people at the Borg don't CR bluff the river much. So it was a clear bet.

I guess hand 2 is not as bad, but I still should have bet it.

Bet/folding the river is tough. I don't think you should do it too much, but on the other hand you should certainly do it once in a while which is more than I do.

Thanks for your comments.