Isolating and a big stack

[Thegunshow]

The raymer bustout hand got me thinking about this so I had to ask the question. Here is the hand for reference:
PokerStars Game #11211181234: Tournament #56058775, $500+$30 Hold'em No Limit - Level XXIII (12500/25000) - 2007/07/30 - 00:43:07 (ET)
Table '56058775 89' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: Xaston (522294 in chips)
Seat 2: bodog4life (1361276 in chips)
Seat 3: cantbeat (547779 in chips)
Seat 4: VuaXi`Tô' (266146 in chips)
Seat 5: Asprin1 (276432 in chips)
Seat 6: margy (70216 in chips)
Seat 7: sacker (1029129 in chips)
Seat 8: FossilMan (702195 in chips)
Seat 9: Dsavo (726718 in chips)
Xaston: posts the ante 2500
bodog4life: posts the ante 2500
cantbeat: posts the ante 2500
VuaXi`Tô': posts the ante 2500
Asprin1: posts the ante 2500
margy: posts the ante 2500
sacker: posts the ante 2500
FossilMan: posts the ante 2500
Dsavo: posts the ante 2500
Dsavo: posts small blind 12500
Xaston: posts big blind 25000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
bodog4life: folds
cantbeat: folds
VuaXi`Tô': raises 38000 to 63000
Asprin1: folds
margy: folds
Xaston said, "Im pretty much a tourney expert"
sacker: raises 963629 to 1026629 and is all-in
FossilMan: calls 699695 and is all-in
Dsavo: folds
Xaston: folds
VuaXi`Tô': folds
*** FLOP *** [Qd 6s 4h]
*** TURN *** [Qd 6s 4h] [8c]
*** RIVER *** [Qd 6s 4h 8c] [Kc]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
sacker: shows [As Ks] (a pair of Kings)
FossilMan: shows [Td Ts] (a pair of Tens)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1522390 | Rake 0
Board [Qd 6s 4h 8c Kc]
Seat 1: Xaston (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: bodog4life folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: cantbeat folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: VuaXi`Tô' folded before Flop
Seat 5: Asprin1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: margy folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: sacker showed [As Ks] and won (1522390) with a pair of Kings
Seat 8: FossilMan (button) showed [Td Ts] and lost with a pair of Tens
Seat 9: Dsavo (small blind) folded before Flop


I am curious about how the big stack played but for different reasons than the ones I've read about. I understand trying to isolate for reduced variance,etc but this seems like a good situation for some increased variance with a possible huge payoff. If the bigstack flat calls, inviting small pairs to iso-push or someone to try a squeeze here, wouldn't this create a chance for a nice big pot?
The only guy that can bust us has already folded so why not roll the dice?

[MJBuddy]

Let's call Vua A, Sacker B, Fossilman C.

A raises, but he's SS.

You're assuming B will be calling to induce a squeeze.

If B calls and C squeezes, the problem falls in that if A then calls, B's hand must hold up vs two other opponents (EVEN if it's AK vs AQ vs AJ, you have to dodge a lot of outs. Best case scenario is AK vs TT vs JJ or similar).

If B jams to isolate, he's folding a lot of PP that would call with implied odds to stack him if they flop a set.

If B has a vulnerable hand (TT-KK, AQ+), he needs to isolate here because if a flop comes with overcards, which it will a lot of the time, you don't know if you're beat. Couple this with being out of position (an aggressive player with TT will bet in position on a AK5 board and JJ and QQ will fold frequently). So you need to make sure that overcards both can't make it to the flop AS WELL as make sure you don't let coinflip situations escape with their stack intact if they blank a flop.


Now, the reason this play is fun is because, let's say initial raisers ranger is 55+, AT+, KQ. If he sees an iso jam, he might call a lot. If he sees an iso jam AND a big call, your 55-QQ, AT-AQ, and KQ all get mucked. QQ might call sometimes, but your PP just isn't going to hold against a variety of overcards enough to make it worth it.



Bleh I just kinda spewed that all out - make sense or should I pretty it up?

[BarryLyndon]

+ Raymer likes to make a lot of big calls when he senses even the slightest bit of weakness. So, even though he's probably facing AQ, AK, or JJ/QQ here (I can't see 99 makinng this iso push w/o a strong read), he's gonna go for it, because, that is what he does. I personally don't agree with it, but, it's not the worst thing I've seen.

Barry

[Thegunshow]

I don't know if I give this guy credit for knowing Raymer makes big calls and that's why he jammed. I also understand preferring to be against one hand instead of two. I think the short stack is getting it all in with any flop and most hands calling a pure shove may have us in serious trouble. It just seems like a call may invite lesser hands to get fancy.
In short, the iso shove is likely flipping against the short stack and most times will be in real trouble against additional callers. A call will hopefully increase our chances of developing a sidepot against a lesser hand.

[BarryLyndon]

No, I don't think that's why he pushed. I think he pushed because he had AK and he wanted to isolate. I think Raymer called because he likes to make big calls [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[Hurrrr]

[ QUOTE ]
No, I don't think that's why he pushed. I think he pushed because he had AK and he wanted to isolate. I think Raymer called because he likes to make big calls [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

He likes to make +EV calls that are very marginal if the result is a huge stack. Greg is a firm believer in taking any edge, knowing that he is very dangerous with a mountain of chips.