Obvious Collusion at *edited* (Long -Cliff Notes at bottom)

[Bicycles_Biatch]

MOD NOTE: I edited the title to make it not show the name of the club. I will not comment on these specific allegations other than to say that at various times part of my job has been to explain to people that aggressive poker is not collusive in nature. -RR


Was in MN this week visiting family...

Played the 15-30 at Canterbury and did pretty well (won a couple racks in about 6 hours).

Walked in today and decided to take a 1 rack ($1,000) shot at the "big" game, 30-60.

I kind of just wanted to splash around and have a good time, see how the locals played, and see some cards.

I know PokerBob is a frequent poster on this forum, so I'm sure we'll hear from him soon (he was at my table)... HOWEVER, if he hasn't in the past brought up the fact that there is OBVIOUS collusion in that 30-60 game... then he is either involved or has decided not to let anyone know.

There was at least 2 obvious teams of 2 players or more working that room... and that's just what I could observe in the 3 hours I played in the 30-60.

When I got there around 2pm, there was a main game and a 5 handed must move going. Two of the players at the must move tried to pretend as though they didn't know eachother when my brother and I first sat down; however, eventually through over-hearing their conversation with the dealers, the cat was out of the bag and I realized that they are best friends and noticed something about them playing raquetball together (one had a shaved head and the other was a taller man with dark hair, a black trendy cap, and long teeth).

These guys, in addition to one other "team" I observed were OBVIOUSLY working together.

A perfect example of their colluding was as follows...

My bro is under the gun with 10-10... he raises, Colluder #1 three-bets and says some phrase to his friend with the word "buddy" in it. I'm guessing "buddy" is some type of code word they use as I heard them use this several times prior to using a whip-saw move. Needless to say, colluder #2 four-bets. Both blinds and my bro folded.

Flop was 2-4-9 offsuit. C#1 checked... C#2 bet... C#1 folded the flop for 1 bet (mind you, the pot had 11 1/2 bets in it). Anyone that plays limit poker never folds the flop for one bet in an eleven bet pot... it just didn't make sense. If he was just a bad player, he would have peeled for overcards/ a pair/ or to pick up a draw; if he was a good player, he would know that the pot was laying him odds to continue with almost any hand.

This exact move happened several times.

Another move that was obvious to anyone paying attention was the following:

C#1 would raise under the gun and get a caller or two. C#2 would make it 3 bets on the button (I'm sure if this was to drive out the blinds and/or just to charge more bets to the players in between who hadn't re-raised).

C#1 would call. On the flop the two colluders would ask a question along the lines of "hey pal, you're not getting out of line over there are you?".

Based on the response and/or head-shake between the two, one of the two would fold the hand on the flop. They were OBVIOUSLY best-handing the field after the flop depending on who flopped the bigger hand and/or draw. This became obvious to me on a hand where the UTG raiser continued on with the pot, his friend 'colluder #2' folded the flop, and C#1 turned over something like 6-9 off suite for 2 flopped pair.

Finally, right before moving to the main game, I busted one of them out and asked them point blank if "buddy" was a code word for 3 Bet or just a code word for "I have a big hand".

As expected, the colluders did exactly what good colluders should do when I questioned them about their tactics. They didn't deny it, didn't make a big scene, didn't argue with me, and they just kind of waited to see if I was going to call the floor. I'm almost positive that anyone not colluding would have made a stand against the fact that someone was calling them a cheat.

Coincidentally, right as I started making an issue, we all got moved to the main game due to there being four seats open (Ironically, this raises another question: What are the chances of the main game loosing 4 players at the exact same time unless all of these players that racked up were working together?!? How many times have you actually seen a full ring game loose FOUR players at once in limit poker?).

Once at the main game, the two colluders took an immediate break and walked off together to obviously talk strategy.

When they returned I was only at the table for about 30 minutes before getting busted (1/2 from bad play and 1/2 from bad luck)... after they returned from their break they appeared to knock off the colluding.

Another situation that I observed was from another team of colluders sitting next to eachother in seat 4 and 5.

C#1 would be under the gun with a hand like KK. He would limp, and C#2 would raise, a few on the table would call, UTG would make it three-bets, and C#2 would fold for one bet.

IT WAS SICKENING. Being a mid-limit player in LA... I've seen some good teams, some horrible teams, and everything in between. I've been cheated by teams I didn't know existed until years later. I'm 100% sure that what I say is accurate and important to anyone playing poker in MN.

I glad to say that I didn't observe the same thing at the 15-30 game. I don't know if this was just luck, or if all the big cheats were in the 30-60 game when I was playing 15-30 on Memorial day.

Anyways, I felt the need to give you the heads up.

Anyone from the Canterbury Club that disputes these facts are either oblivious, or are part of a team working to STEAL your money.

*Cliff Notes- Canterbury club in MN has lots of cheats in their big limit game.

[HOWMANY]

Never been to Canterbury so I won't comment on that, but it's not really that uncommon at all for a main game to be full for a few hours with nobody leaving then suddenly lose a bunch of players, in fact it happens pretty often. In the games I play if someone suggested this was a result of people playing in "teams" I would soil myself with laughter because multiple spots opening up are usually the result of the terrible players running out of dollars which will either prompt the winning but still crappy players to leave or sometimes some of the other fish that like to play with their horrible buddies.

Also you should probably tell your buddy that folding TT for 2 more bets there is awful.

The few times I have thought that people might be working together in a game as a result of an unusual play I have later decided that they were just morons.

[Gabbbbyyyy]

I would have approached security OUTSIDE the room and reported the activity. These jokers were so blatently obvious from what you wrote.

If they had half a brain they would use chips or certain noises using chips to direct action, and reveal hands.. Like 2 taps= raise, 1 tap= fold.

[MitchL]

I have heard of cheating in the game, but have never obviously witnessed it. The term "buddy" is used in the 15 and 30 game by many players. It comes from HSP. I have been called buddy literally hundreds of times @ CP, its just slang. I dont think your evidence is at all conclusive. That game can be tough, the players have played many hours together and many game select and probably roll off each other. Bc, there are no higher games the player pool becomes tight-nit though I dont think to the point of having teams.

[Bicycles_Biatch]

[ QUOTE ]

Also you should probably tell your buddy that folding TT for 2 more bets there is awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree... I don't want to make this a strategy session, but I think he is looking at something like 3 unique over cards and/or an over pair... very hard to dodge all of them on the flop. Furthermore, set value goes down because if you don't flop top set (and it's four bet preflop) you could easily be looking at set over set if the board brings more broadway cards than just your 10.

In addition, Canturberry club allows 5 bets on each street, so if he called, he was probably actually calling 3 more bets pre-flop, not just the two.

[ QUOTE ]

The few times I have thought that people might be working together in a game as a result of an unusual play I have later decided that they were just morons.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to agree. AND- I hate to make these claims on such a small sample size. However, my brother and I have played poker fairly regularly for 6-7 years and we both thought the cheating today was fairly obvious. Also, another buddy of mine was sitting on the rail watching the game while waiting for a 15-30, he caught on too before I even said anything.

100% collusion going on in the game.

[PokerBob]

i don't even know where to begin with this BS, but I will start with this statement....
[ QUOTE ]
HOWEVER, if he hasn't in the past brought up the fact that there is OBVIOUS collusion in that 30-60 game... then he is either involved or has decided not to let anyone know.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are making a very serious accusation here. if you have any evidence, then either bring it or shut the [censored] up.

[Bicycles_Biatch]

[ QUOTE ]
I have heard of cheating in the game, but have never obviously witnessed it. The term "buddy" is used in the 15 and 30 game by many players. It comes from HSP. I have been called buddy literally hundreds of times @ CP, its just slang. I dont think your evidence is at all conclusive. That game can be tough, the players have played many hours together and many game select and probably roll off each other. Bc, there are no higher games the player pool becomes tight-nit though I dont think to the point of having teams.

[/ QUOTE ]

I the game is a "local" game. I know that when you are playing with a small pool of players (maybe only 80-90 that play on a regular basis in that game) you get to know eachother and have strong reads.

HOWEVER, this is just further proof to my claim. One of the colluders played A-K VERY hard from all posisitions... even 5 betting a tight player several times preflop. Therefore, if you "knew" your opponent, you would be LESS likely to fold for one bet on a small flop as you would KNOW he may only have AK and or being betting with total air here.

[Gabbbbyyyy]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't even know where to begin with this BS, but I will start with this statement....
[ QUOTE ]
HOWEVER, if he hasn't in the past brought up the fact that there is OBVIOUS collusion in that 30-60 game... then he is either involved or has decided not to let anyone know.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are making a very serious accusation here. if you have any evidence, then either bring it or shut the [censored] up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree Bob. However your tone is a bit on the guilty-defensive side.

He already gave plenty of evidence. Someone 3 betting and then folding to a single bet is HIGHLY suspicious.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Also you should probably tell your buddy that folding TT for 2 more bets there is awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree... I don't want to make this a strategy session, but I think he is looking at something like 3 unique over cards and/or an over pair... very hard to dodge all of them on the flop. Furthermore, set value goes down because if you don't flop top set (and it's four bet preflop) you could easily be looking at set over set if the board brings more broadway cards than just your 10.

In addition, Canturberry club allows 5 bets on each street, so if he called, he was probably actually calling 3 more bets pre-flop, not just the two.

[ QUOTE ]

The few times I have thought that people might be working together in a game as a result of an unusual play I have later decided that they were just morons.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to agree. AND- I hate to make these claims on such a small sample size. However, my brother and I have played poker fairly regularly for 6-7 years and we both thought the cheating today was fairly obvious. Also, another buddy of mine was sitting on the rail watching the game while waiting for a 15-30, he caught on too before I even said anything.

100% collusion going on in the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is absurd. i hate to burst your bubble, but you guys simply suck at limit poker. i watched one of you raise preflop, get 3bet from the blind, then call. flop comes like QT8 with 2 clubs, blind bets, you raise, blind 3bets, you fold. in your initial rant you say no one folds in a pot that big, yet you did.

and having your 'buddy' watch and agree means nothing. i have played with him before. he is simply awful.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i don't even know where to begin with this BS, but I will start with this statement....
[ QUOTE ]
HOWEVER, if he hasn't in the past brought up the fact that there is OBVIOUS collusion in that 30-60 game... then he is either involved or has decided not to let anyone know.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are making a very serious accusation here. if you have any evidence, then either bring it or shut the [censored] up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree Bob. However your tone is a bit on the guilty-defensive side.

He already gave plenty of evidence. Someone 3 betting and then folding to a single bet is HIGHLY suspicious.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't recall that hand, but i know the 2 guys he is talking about. i have played a great deal with them both. they are not a team. period.

and being friends with people in the game means nothing. i play HARDER against my friends than anyone else and am CONSTANTLY [censored] with them/putting them in bad spots.

the guy who made this post limped K6s utg in a 9 handed game. he clearly doesn't know much about limit hold'em.