Tilt 6-max $109, Basic PF spot vs. Rizen

[mikeJ]

Rizen gets seated @ my table, I say hello and ask him not to take too many of my chips. Within that orbit, he opens the button, I fold the bb.

Very next orbit he opens the button again and I have A4s.

Full Tilt Poker Game #3069525626: $30,000 Guarantee (22248209), Table 20 - 120/240 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 1:15:56 ET - 2007/07/27
Seat 1: harryplug (6,684)
Seat 2: yoren8 (26,630)
Seat 3: imweidhorn (9,325), is sitting out
Seat 4: KwaziWabbit (7,290)
Seat 5: harmony52 (15,830)
Seat 6: Rizen (10,947)
harryplug antes 25
yoren8 antes 25
imweidhorn antes 25
KwaziWabbit antes 25
harmony52 antes 25
Rizen antes 25
harryplug posts the small blind of 120
yoren8 posts the big blind of 240
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to yoren8 [4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]
imweidhorn folds
KwaziWabbit folds
harmony52 folds
Rizen raises to 720
harryplug folds
yoren8 ?

I think people can make reasonable arguments for all 3 options.

[nath]

Well, when I don't particularly like any option, I try to choose the low-risk, high-reward one. For some people that means fold, for me it means "call and play poker".

[shaundeeb]

I like 3betting to 2k here.

[NoahSD]

[ QUOTE ]
I like 3betting to 2k here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah.

[mikeJ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like 3betting to 2k here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate why you prefer to 3-bet?

[NoahSD]

Sorry.

I assume Rizen's range is pretty wide here, so I assumme he's folding a lot to a 3-bet. That's a huge argument in itself obviously.

The major problem with 3-betting is we set up stacks nicely for a 4-bet shove, but given your description of your history, I don't think he'll be 4-betting incredibly lightly, since he can't really be sure if your 3-betting range is loosish here (hands like A4s) or really tight like it is for many TAGs in this spot. People tend to err on the tight side when they're considering making a biggish move with limited info.

Disclaimer: Never played with Rizen, and barely play MTTs anymore.

[A_PLUS]

-I don't think Rizen is putting 25% of his stack in preflop with a hand that doesn't crush A4s.
-Calling a 4-bet shove with A4s against Rizen is very very bad.


Someone care to explain to me how a 3 bet isn't a bluff? Seriously, everyone is saying how bad it is to fold A4s in this spot, but then advocating a line where the strength of our hand is pretty much irrelevant.

**This changes if you think Rizen calls a 3 bet a lot. I don't see it without a hand that dominates us (and not that often, period).

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]

Someone care to explain to me how a 3 bet isn't a bluff? Seriously, everyone is saying how bad it is to fold A4s in this spot, but then advocating a line where the strength of our hand is pretty much irrelevant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a value bluff.

Its more bluffy than value, but the hand can turn into something good, like a semi-bluff flush/gutter draw.

Regards,
Woodguy

[registrar]

The point is that he is just going to fold a lot if we raise. His button opening range is very wide, his four-betting (or calling range) is both reasonable and narrow, playing the hand OOP given the stacks is going to be very difficult.

Rizen, IMO, will open here until he gets played back at and I would resteal a pretty wide range here, which definitely includes A4s.

[A_PLUS]

[ QUOTE ]
The point is that he is just going to fold a lot if we raise. His button opening range is very wide, his four-betting (or calling range) is both reasonable and narrow, playing the hand OOP given the stacks is going to be very difficult.

Rizen, IMO, will open here until he gets played back at and I would resteal a pretty wide range here, which definitely includes A4s.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not saying that a resteal isn't profitable.
My point is, people are giving bad reasons why.
-[ QUOTE ]
The point is that he is just going to fold a lot if we raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed

-[ QUOTE ]
His button opening range is very wide, his four-betting (or calling range) is both reasonable and narrow

[/ QUOTE ]
Basically the same point, I agree

-[ QUOTE ]
playing the hand OOP given the stacks is going to be very difficult. Rizen, IMO, will open here until he gets played back at and I would resteal a pretty wide range here, which definitely includes A4s.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where I get lost. We don't want to play A4s OOP, so we take a line where that we win preflop almost every time we win the hand. So, why does the fact that we have A4s have anything to do with our play? On the remote possibility that he calls, we are dominated pretty much all of the time. So why make this play with A4s? We are probably better off with a hand like J9o. Unless we are in a spot where the Villan is getting good odds to call an all-in, how our hand plays against his opening range is meaningless. It only matters how our hand does vs his calling range. That being said, A4s doesn't look any different than 50% of the hands we are dealt. It is the same logic as raising a baby Ace from the button, if you wont call a resteal. It feels right, but when you break it down, it just doesn't make sense.