AA and KK, aren't these good hands?

[StrictlyStrategy]

An ancient player limps in who I've never seen before, but seems alert, and not insanely fishy, and I raise KK, it's HU.

AJ4 he checkcalls, turn's a brick and he donks and I fold.


Three people limp and I raise two black Aces.
BB who I don't remember playing with, but just by looking at him doesn't look like a fish. Everyone else calls.

Flop comes J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] checks to a tighter player who is really horrible and probably a winner in this games who bets out. I raise, BB calls two cold, bettor calls.

Turn's a two, BB checkraises me and I fold.

[KitCloudkicker]

super standard folds.

calling that turn bet with KK is godawful against like 90% of live players, especially ancient old men.

[Hair_of_the_Dog]

I get in the same situations all the time. So of the time I'll call the donk better down (some games the players are just that bad, and bluff lots). This may be a hole in my game. In your case there is an A on the board and live that usually is an auto fold against a donk bet or a raise.

I played againts a guy last night who with a 3 flush on the board would have bet out with a 6. He'd cold call 2 or 3 bets with his 6. Players like this make it difficult for me to fold black AA, especially HU.

[Mike]

Whether or not your play was good is very subjective. If you just sat down before the first hand occured, then it was not the best choice on your part. If you have layed down more than once on a scary board, maybe not the best choice.

If you have seen them both show hands and feel it is reasonable that they hit their hands on those boards, then it was a good read and laydown on your part.

If I had little time with either player, they would have to show me at the river with tears in my eyes.

[Hielko]

Hand 1: I read donkbets as weakness. I wouldn't fold, but it depends.

Hand 2: Folding here is simply wrong, no question about it. I count four outs to a boat and I see 10:1 odds. This is even without considering that your hand could be good and certainly will be some percentage of the time. And after calling the turn bet I would call all non [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] rivers as well since you will be getting great odds on a call and you have no read. Poker is simple: no read means call with decent hands on the river in big pots.

[KitCloudkicker]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: I read donkbets as weakness. I wouldn't fold, but it depends.

Hand 2: Folding here is simply wrong, no question about it. I count four outs to a boat and I see 10:1 odds. This is even without considering that your hand could be good and certainly will be some percentage of the time. And after calling the turn bet I would call all non [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] rivers as well since you will be getting great odds on a call and you have no read. Poker is simple: no read means call with decent hands on the river in big pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

did you consider that this is in a live game?

hand 2: fwiw if you're calling all non-diamond rivers you arent getting 10:1. more like 7:1 on your complete calldown. also the fact that you're calling down all non-diamond rivers suggests that you think this guy might be semi-bluff check raising 2 opponents. this does not happen in live poker at these limits.

finally, i think you're overestimating the amt of outs that hero has here. villains hand looks like either a flush or a boat here. for the latter we have 2 outs, the former 4. id say on average here we have 3 outs.

[Hielko]

The odds on the complete calldown aren't important because you NEED to call the turn, folding is not an option! The river decision doesn't depend on the turn decision. Perhaps it's better to fold the river (his flop and turn line look strong), but you need to consider that you beat every two pair hands, you are getting great odds on the river and you don't have a read.

[HoneyBadger]

calling 2 cold is flopped flush...

[KitCloudkicker]

[ QUOTE ]
The odds on the complete calldown aren't important because you NEED to call the turn, folding is not an option! The river decision doesn't depend on the turn decision. .

[/ QUOTE ]

?? but i thought the plan was to call all non diamond rivers - in this case, the turn decision is influencing the river decision.

if you're disciplined enough to fold the river knowing you're beat, then i agree with your pot odds assessment.

[Hielko]

[ QUOTE ]
calling 2 cold is flopped flush...

[/ QUOTE ]
Or a flushdraw, or toppair, or a set or [fill in]. I agree that his play really looks like a flopped flush, but it's certainly not the only thing he can have. Calling two cold doesn't say much, but calling two cold and then C/R the turn looks like a monster (read: flopped flush).

[ QUOTE ]
if you're disciplined enough to fold the river knowing you're beat, then i agree with your pot odds assessment.

[/ QUOTE ]
How certain are you against an unknown? If you are beat here 90% then you should call the river.