Nut flush draw flop to TPTK on turn against LAG - too aggressive?

hammerva · #1 07-19-2007, 07:03 PM

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $29.25
UTG+1: $50.25
MP1: $102.25
Hero: $33.50
MP3: $65
CO: $27
Button: $392.25
SB: $41.25
BB: $16

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises, MP1 folds, Hero 3-bets, 5 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7.5SB, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6.75BB, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero calls.

River: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (10.75BB, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 12.75BB

UTG-1 is a very loose aggressive player with a 28 WIP/2.1 AF/16% PFR% . Definitely doesn't have a problem going to the river when he goes after the flop. I guess the question here is that is it really worth it too push hard against an aggressive player who could have raised with any aces or aces themselves (hell it happens even for loose ones). Should I have played this slower pre-flop and turn?

I guess the other question that I just don't understand is when you have an aggressive guy when to realize that a turn raise means I am dead or when it means that he thinks he TPGK or worse is the best hand. I have been told that it is foolish to always assume a raise means your beat.

aK13 · #2 07-19-2007, 07:11 PM

Why did you 3bet the flop?

The rest looks okay given your play but I think you're toast. Can probably fold the river.

hammerva · #3 07-19-2007, 07:20 PM

I thought the standard aggressive play was to 3 bet to strong flush draws on here. Always hear to raise for value on here.

And looking at SSHE on the "protecting your play" section, the exact same scenario in the book tells me to 3 bet.

Point Blank · #4 07-19-2007, 07:44 PM

note: 28/16/2.1 is not very aggressive nor very loose - he's a agressive and a little loose (but he's not nuts or anything like that)

how many hands is this over ... do you have actual hand info to think this guy is laggy ...
IMO: this type of player will be what he thinks are OK hands and put pressure on you, but will generally respond to your raises only with good hands (he's able to be draws aggressively, and sometimes be a little tricky with strong pre-flop hand HU)

66 and A9 are probably at that bottom of his range here ...
so I'm thinking some likely hands are
A9, 66, 99, TT, perhaps 88 or 77 with a spade (I think that's pushing it though)
maybe pusing K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img](QJ), maybe Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img](J), AK [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], AQ [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], AJ [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
and what ever spades hands, K(QJT), QJ, maybe QT

vs that range I don't think I like the looks of a 3bet (especially since our ace outs could get us in some trouble)

after the 2nd c.r on the turn you're meat (most likely), but obviously have to call ... and on the river - well getting 11:1 to look him up isn't all that bad

Jaran · #5 07-19-2007, 07:46 PM

Don't trey the flop. I might be tempted to c/r the turn (especially if I didn't 3bet on the flop). The reason for not 3betting the flop has to do w/value. He raised pf, so already your fe is smaller, and w/only one opponant, you are putting in money w/the worst of it equity wise. I don't have my copy of sshe handy, but I'll look at it later to check on the point you're making.

-J

jeanbaptiste36 · #6 07-19-2007, 08:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I thought the standard aggressive play was to 3 bet to strong flush draws on here. Always hear to raise for value on here.

And looking at SSHE on the "protecting your play" section, the exact same scenario in the book tells me to 3 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are not protecting your overcards here. You are HU so you can't clean outs against a crowd.

Aaron W. · #7 07-19-2007, 08:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
note: 28/16/2.1 is not very aggressive nor very loose - he's a agressive and a little loose (but he's not nuts or anything like that)

[/ QUOTE ]

For a full ring game, it's pretty loose and aggressive. It's not hyper-LAG, but it's definitely LAG.

Point Blank · #8 07-19-2007, 08:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
note: 28/16/2.1 is not very aggressive nor very loose - he's a agressive and a little loose (but he's not nuts or anything like that)

[/ QUOTE ]

For a full ring game, it's pretty loose and aggressive. It's not hyper-LAG, but it's definitely LAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aaron ... OP seem to be overplaying because he thinks this guy is "very loose aggressive" ... which he isn't

once someone gets up to like 35/10 in full ring (I start to consider them a LAG)
but really 28/16/2.1 isn't that far ahead of normal stats (8-10 points higher in vpip - which could easily be too many limps in sb and bb and playing stuff like JTo utg - and pfr same on a point or two lower ...)

Aaron W. · #9 07-19-2007, 09:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
note: 28/16/2.1 is not very aggressive nor very loose - he's a agressive and a little loose (but he's not nuts or anything like that)

[/ QUOTE ]

For a full ring game, it's pretty loose and aggressive. It's not hyper-LAG, but it's definitely LAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aaron ... OP seem to be overplaying because he thinks this guy is "very loose aggressive" ... which he isn't

once someone gets up to like 35/10 in full ring (I start to consider them a LAG)
but really 28/16/2.1 isn't that far ahead of normal stats (8-10 points higher in vpip - which could easily be too many limps in sb and bb and playing stuff like JTo utg - and pfr same on a point or two lower ...)

[/ QUOTE ]

35/10? That looks loose passive to me. If you don't like "LAG", then we can say "sLAG".

I didn't comment on OP's play, so it wasn't a support of his play.

Point Blank · #10 07-19-2007, 09:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
note: 28/16/2.1 is not very aggressive nor very loose - he's a agressive and a little loose (but he's not nuts or anything like that)

[/ QUOTE ]

For a full ring game, it's pretty loose and aggressive. It's not hyper-LAG, but it's definitely LAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aaron ... OP seem to be overplaying because he thinks this guy is "very loose aggressive" ... which he isn't

once someone gets up to like 35/10 in full ring (I start to consider them a LAG)
but really 28/16/2.1 isn't that far ahead of normal stats (8-10 points higher in vpip - which could easily be too many limps in sb and bb and playing stuff like JTo utg - and pfr same on a point or two lower ...)

[/ QUOTE ]

35/10? That looks loose passive to me. If you don't like "LAG", then we can say "sLAG".

I didn't comment on OP's play, so it wasn't a support of his play.

[/ QUOTE ]

typo ... should be PFR 20

so pretty much big 6max stats for full ring