Ruling in home game

[Timmy82]

Here’s the situation:

No-Limit Cash Home Game

Player A goes all-in on turn. Player B calls Player A. Player A shows two pair, Player B shows a straight. Player A throws his cards into the muck (irretrievable at this point). River comes and gives Player A a boat should he still have his two hole cards. Player A complains and says everybody saw his cards. Player B basically leaves it on Player A to make the right decision, but Player A scoops the pot anyway. The pot is a significant amount for the game ($60 pot, our buy-in is $20).

Some other information: Player A and I host the game. He hosts one week, I host the next. I am out of town on vacation and was not present for the hand in question. If I was, he would not have gotten the pot, or I would not be part of the game anymore.

From Robert's rules:
"Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved at management's discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. We will make an extra effort to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player."

This rule is what gives me a little doubt in my interpretation of what should have been done. Player A was never given incorrect information, so I see no reason why he should be awarded the pot. Maybe if Player B was being generous, he could offer to chop the pot, but that should be the best case situation for player A.

Am I right in saying that once Player A's hand hit the muck, it’s dead and Player B should be awarded the pot?

Thanks in advance for any help.

[ericmalone]

He basically folded at the turn. The river didn't need to be dealt. Though I could be wrong.

[psandman]

Here's a good rule to follow.

DON'T RABBIT HUNT.

Player A threw away his hand, dealer drops the deck pushes the pot and moves to next hand and there is no problem.

Why would you ever deal the river in this instance?

[pfapfap]

Player A is welcome to my home game at any time. I love people who open-fold.

[Taso]

I give player A the pot.

"Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved at management's discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. We will make an extra effort to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player."

The hand was clearly identifiable - everyone at the table saw it. This is a home game, unless you suspect the entire table of working with player A, and saying "yes, he had those cards" and lying, which if you suspect, it obviously can't be a good game, he should get his cards back.

[Lottery Larry]

[ QUOTE ]
Player A is welcome to my home game at any time. I love people who open-fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

But I would never have player A as a HOST- what a horrible decision, ESPECIALLY with the host involved.

He folded like an idiot before the hand was completed, hand dead, no soup for you.

Note: the only concern might be, to avoid chip dumping risks, is allowing people to fold mid-hand when all-in. But in this case, no way does A get the pot.

[H0neyM0nster]

People learn by their mistakes.

Player A should not get the pot - but from then on in his poker life he will remember the 'expensive' lesson and never throw a tantrum again.....

Cruel to be kind - we are normally pretty lenient at our home game but we always make a point of saying, 'you'd never get away with that in a casino.'

[KampfHase]

Some excerpts (random order) from Robert's Rules of Poker (Version 10) that you might want to consider:

[ QUOTE ]

2. Cards thrown into the the center of the table may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. We will make an extra effort to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of false information given to the player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Additionally
[ QUOTE ]

2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared.

[/ QUOTE ]

Player A didn't hold onto his cards. His hole cards are dead, so is his whole hand. That kind of stupidity has to be punished. How can someone throw his hand into the muck if there are still cards to come? Don't award him the pot; he has to learn it the hard way. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]
So, I think you're right in not awarding the pot to player A. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Btw, is there actually a need for teaching home game players the proper way of executing a showdown? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
This is ridiculous. All these threads about sloppy showdowns coming up after "Was I justified or out of line". Are there so many players who are incapable of practicing proper poker? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

My best advice; read this: http://www.lasvegasvegas.com/poker/rules.php [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Timmy82]

Thanks for the input everybody.

What makes it worse is that this has happened twice before when I was there. One of those times, it was Player A who folded. Both times the player who folded was forced to forfeit the pot. Like I said earlier, if I was there, he wouldn't have gotten the pot. I would have allowed a split if Player B agreed, but that's the best thing Player A should have been offered.

[Khabbi]

[ QUOTE ]
What makes it worse is that this has happened twice before when I was there. One of those times, it was Player A who folded. Both times the player who folded was forced to forfeit the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

That does make it worse because since there was precedent; a consistent ruling is necessary. If Player A can't stay objective maybe he shouldn't host anymore.

Although, an argument can be presented: Does your house rule force hands to be tabled when they are all-in in your cash game? If so, his hand is live because he tabled it and really has no other option at this point. If you force players to table their hands, he did. After that, his actions on his cards are irrelevant.