Why Should Jews Be Mad At The Pope For Reinstating...

[David Sklansky]

the prayer asking for the conversion of Jews. If someone thought I was going to hell if I didn't convert to their religion I would be upset it they DIDN'T pray for that.

[chezlaw]

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the prayer asking for the conversion of Jews. If someone thought I was going to hell if I didn't convert to their religion I would be upset it they DIDN'T pray for that.

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If they believed they were saving you from hell by using force to get you to convert would you be upset if they didn't use force on you?

chez

[Phil153]

Bravo to the pope. I've never understood people who place respect for other's religions above the truth.

I've always said believers don't really believe their own religion. If they did, they would be working a lot harder to save atheists and jews.

If I knew for a fact that non believers or believers of different religions would spend eternity in a place of horror, I would devote a good portion of my life to making them see the light. So would anyone else who isn't a selfish prick.

[David Sklansky]

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the prayer asking for the conversion of Jews. If someone thought I was going to hell if I didn't convert to their religion I would be upset it they DIDN'T pray for that.

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If they believed they were saving you from hell by using force to get you to convert would you be upset if they didn't use force on you?

chez

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Obviously that's a different story.

[chezlaw]

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the prayer asking for the conversion of Jews. If someone thought I was going to hell if I didn't convert to their religion I would be upset it they DIDN'T pray for that.

[/ QUOTE ]
If they believed they were saving you from hell by using force to get you to convert would you be upset if they didn't use force on you?

chez

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Obviously that's a different story.

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obvious to who? No use it being obvious to you if it isn't obvious to Bluffthis! and co.

Maybe its concern for this lack of obviousness that partially answers your question.

chez

[chezlaw]

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Bravo to the pope. I've never understood people who place respect for other's religions above the truth.

I've always said believers don't really believe their own religion. If they did, they would be working a lot harder to save atheists and jews.

If I knew for a fact that non believers or believers of different religions would spend eternity in a place of horror, I would devote a good portion of my life to making them see the light. So would anyone else who isn't a selfish prick.

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Is it obvious to you why praying is okay to help them see the light but coercion isn't? What about a small tax break to encourage people in the right direction?

chez

[Phil153]

I disagree with David. It's not obviously a different story at all. Most Christians don't get this, but if hell is literally true, and for eternity, then most means to save another's soul should be permissible, provided they would be grateful for the help if they knew the truth that you do.

I suspect David's problem was more us derailing his gleeful thread.

[Duke]

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the prayer asking for the conversion of Jews. If someone thought I was going to hell if I didn't convert to their religion I would be upset it they DIDN'T pray for that.

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There's this thing that seems to have developed over the years, and it has to do with respect. Now, this isn't something that I'd call respect, but respecting someone else's beliefs seems to mean just keeping your mouth shut.

So the Jews and the Christians have this "mutual respect" thing going now which stops things like mass slaughters and wars.

So, Jews are totally cool with Christians thinking that they're all going to burn for eternity, but if they say it out loud it's a violation of that respect facade. All of a sudden they're disrespecting their faith because they're vocalizing their beliefs.

Silence is a decent solution for both sides, because neither side REALLY respects the other. Vocalization, though, makes it more difficult to get their kids and various others that they'd like to convert to their brand of religion to come in blindly. It's easier to not be posed with the question of why that other very large group thinks that they're dead wrong.

I'm not saying that this behavior itself makes sense, but I think that my understanding of it is the only way the anger at the prayer can make any sense.

[Bigdaddydvo]

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the prayer asking for the conversion of Jews. If someone thought I was going to hell if I didn't convert to their religion I would be upset it they DIDN'T pray for that.

[/ QUOTE ]
If they believed they were saving you from hell by using force to get you to convert would you be upset if they didn't use force on you?

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously that's a different story.

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obvious to who? No use it being obvious to you if it isn't obvious to Bluffthis! and co.

Maybe its concern for this lack of obviousness that partially answers your question.

chez

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Chez,

Catholics are strongly opposed to converting anyone by force. As I'm sure BluffTHIS! is, so don't misrepresent his position.

You'd be hard pressed to find any recent examples of the Church using force to convert people. Though there certainly examples in history of it happening on a limited basis among select missionaries, these examples are clearly the exception. Islam, on the other hand, relied heavily on "conversion of the sword" to spread its Faith.

The Church, however, strongly recognizes religious freedom as a fundamental right, one that Pope Benedict has labored intensely for the rest of the world to recognize. Consider a recent speech of his w/respect to Iran.

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"Our duty as believers," the Pope said, "is to announce to our contemporaries the fundamental values of religion. By virtue of natural law God left his mark on man and in doing so he enabled such values to give every person dignity and allowed us to manage our relations with our fellow human beings."

"As I said many times before," the Pope insisted, "Catholics must bear witness in favour of a culture of life, one that respects human life from conception till natural death and protects man's inalienable rights and duties. Among these rights, religious freedom stands out as an essential part of freedom of conscience and so reveals the transcendental nature of the human person."

"The Holy See is counting on Iranian authorities to give Catholics in Iran as well as other Christians the right to rely profess their faith and grant Church institutions the status of legal entities thus facilitating their work in Iranian society."

"Freedom of worship," he reiterated, "is but one aspect of religious freedom which must be the same for all citizens." (FP)



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By the way, praying for the conversion of Jewish folks in no way endangers or suppresses their religious liberty.

[vhawk01]

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the prayer asking for the conversion of Jews. If someone thought I was going to hell if I didn't convert to their religion I would be upset it they DIDN'T pray for that.

[/ QUOTE ]
If they believed they were saving you from hell by using force to get you to convert would you be upset if they didn't use force on you?

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously that's a different story.

[/ QUOTE ]
obvious to who? No use it being obvious to you if it isn't obvious to Bluffthis! and co.

Maybe its concern for this lack of obviousness that partially answers your question.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Chez,

Catholics are strongly opposed to converting anyone by force. As I'm sure BluffTHIS! is, so don't misrepresent his position.

You'd be hard pressed to find any recent examples of the Church using force to convert people. Though there certainly examples in history of it happening on a limited basis among select missionaries, these examples are clearly the exception. Islam, on the other hand, relied heavily on "conversion of the sword" to spread its Faith.

The Church, however, strongly recognizes religious freedom as a fundamental right, one that Pope Benedict has labored intensely for the rest of the world to recognize. Consider a recent speech of his w/respect to Iran.

[ QUOTE ]
"Our duty as believers," the Pope said, "is to announce to our contemporaries the fundamental values of religion. By virtue of natural law God left his mark on man and in doing so he enabled such values to give every person dignity and allowed us to manage our relations with our fellow human beings."

"As I said many times before," the Pope insisted, "Catholics must bear witness in favour of a culture of life, one that respects human life from conception till natural death and protects man's inalienable rights and duties. Among these rights, religious freedom stands out as an essential part of freedom of conscience and so reveals the transcendental nature of the human person."

"The Holy See is counting on Iranian authorities to give Catholics in Iran as well as other Christians the right to rely profess their faith and grant Church institutions the status of legal entities thus facilitating their work in Iranian society."

"Freedom of worship," he reiterated, "is but one aspect of religious freedom which must be the same for all citizens." (FP)



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By the way, praying for the conversion of Jewish folks in no way endangers or suppresses their religious liberty.

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So, I recently converted to this new religion, its pretty neat, no real stress or onerous rituals. One sticking point though: my God says that if people pray to any OTHER God for my salvation and conversion, he gets pretty angry and does a little "If I can't have him, no one can" magic, and I'm sent straight to Hell for all eternity.

Faze you at all?