Interesting Congression CC factoids and finishing courses with a par-3

[tuq]

I couldn't decide whether to put this in the yet unaddressed AT&T thread, but it's a broader topic so I'll post it here.

As we all know, the tournament this week is at Congressional. Most famous for its heritage, it also ends unusually: with a par-3. Well it so happens that its signature hole is #17, so during all the previous US Opens they made that the 18th. When the Booz Allen was there a couple years back it had reverted to its normal routing.

Another interesting tidbit is to make up for the removal of the 18th, for routing reasons they added two holes from the adjacent Gold course - a par-3 and a par-4 - and didn't use the hole normally numbered 16 (playing as number 17 this week.

Well, they scrapped the rerouting and still use the 18th green - except it's now the 10th hole and the teeboxes are clear on the other side of the green. I've never seen anything like that. It will probably stay that way for the Open in 2011 too.

Anyway, is ending with a par-3 really weaksauce? The other course at Congressional, the Gold, does this too. So does East Lake in Atlanta, and others. Personally I don't see the problem with it, as long as it's a tough enough hole where birdies are rare and a big number is possible.

[WLVRYN]

I dont think its terrible. You have to play 18 holes, generally 4 are par 3's, so who cares what order they are in.

That being said, I'd rather have a reasonably reachable par 5 for a Tour event. I think that lends itself to the highest possibility of an awesome finish, with a player having the ability to make up two shots with an eagle.

I voted for Pebble (obv), Doral and TPC Sawgrass. I think the lakes at Doral and TPC bring in the possibility of late fireworks too since the holes are generally harder and create bogey possibilities for the leader.

[Evan]

I don't think ending with a par 3 is weak at all. In fact, I like it when courses have non standard setups in terms of where the par not 4's are: starting with a par 3, three 3's and three 5's on a side, etc.

If I could design my ideal course I think I'd end with a par 5. As long as it's not a boring, wide open hole it seems like it would make for the most exciting endings.

[tuq]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd rather have a reasonably reachable par 5 for a Tour event.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. Think Torrey Pines (I'm seriously bummed they're making it a par-4 for the Open, WTF), Pebble Beach (and haha that they can never make this course lower than a par 71 because of the par-5 lengths), TPC Sugarloaf (left off this list since it's less well-known), Kapalua Plantation, and others - there was that tournament, maybe Cog Hill, where Paddy Harrington won with a really long eagle putt a year or two ago. All have reasonable chances for scores ranging from 3-6 or even higher.

[tuq]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think ending with a par 3 is weak at all. In fact, I like it when courses have non standard setups in terms of where the par not 4's are: starting with a par 3, three 3's and three 5's on a side, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, particularly since the standard distribution is 10 par 4s, and four each of par 5s and 3s. The more of the latter two the better.

Anyway, if you like non-standard you'd love the back nine of Pacific Dunes, currently the #2 public course in the US

# Par
10 3
11 3
12 5
13 4
14 3
15 5
16 4
17 3
18 5

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think ending with a par 3 is weak at all. In fact, I like it when courses have non standard setups in terms of where the par not 4's are: starting with a par 3, three 3's and three 5's on a side, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, particularly since the standard distribution is 10 par 4s, and four each of par 5s and 3s. The more of the latter two the better.

Anyway, if you like non-standard you'd love the back nine of Pacific Dunes, currently the #2 public course in the US

# Par
10 3
11 3
12 5
13 4
14 3
15 5
16 4
17 3
18 5

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm assuming it's not much of an issue on this course, but normally putting two par 3's in a row is suicide because it creates a huge backup. As I understand it, Pacific Dunes is (1) pretty expensive (2) far enough away from anything resembling civilization that you have to make a real effort to go play there, which means it's probably not super crowded.

Another course design feature I like is a first hole where you shouldn't/can't hit driver. This could be either a short par 4 or par 3 (par 5's that should be played with an iron aren't quite as good here imo).

I would love to design a golf course. I wish things like the Arnold Palmer Course Designer in Links 2003 weren't so prohibitively complicated.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
Kapalua Plantation

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a great finishing hole. It was a blast to watch Els and Tiger play it in whatever year that was (2001?).

[Evan]

I had an idea for a thread and I want to see if some of you might be interested.

Post a hole (google earth might be a good way to do it for different angles and such, but any image/yardage book whatever would work) and critique it for either good or bad design. Golf course design really interests me and I think it would be cool to get others' opinions on what you like/dislike. I'll probably end up making a thread regardless, but I figure at least someone might start thinking about it now to get the discussion rolling. I'm not feeling very good so I may or may not get around to making the post tonight. If someone else wants to do it first feel free and I'll tag along, otherwise I'll start it some time soon.

[Troll_Inc]

[ QUOTE ]
That being said, I'd rather have a reasonably reachable par 5 for a Tour event. I think that lends itself to the highest possibility of an awesome finish, with a player having the ability to make up two shots with an eagle.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. It seems like the best finishing hole will have the largest ranges of scores, e.g. something with a nice risk/reward feature.

[tuq]

Evan,

I've designed more golf courses on paper and in the front and back yards growing up than you've probably played. I've only never designed in Links 2003 because I am a design perfectionist and I heard it was insanely time-consuming and difficult to master.

In fact, it was sending some drawings to Jack Nicklaus' company around 1983 that got me a one-on-one meeting with him when he was opening Desert Highlands. It later scored us media badges to the first couple skins games, the classic Jack/Tom/Arnold/Gary ones.

That said, I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for in a thread, or at least how to kick it off.

EDIT: I'm also not sure how to simply the image I'm looking at on Google Maps (satellite perspective) without capturing the entire Firefox window. IOW I can't just right click/copy image or image location. Does anyone how to do this?