The ol' Pooh Bah post......

[jlocdog]

Since my time of actively posting on 2+2 I can honestly say my understanding of the game (NL holdem in specific but not limited to) has drastically increased. What I have found to be most intriguing in my continuing growth in knowledge and play is being able to recognize when I have reached 'the next level'. This does not necessarily pertain to actual stakes but more so the comprehending of new ideas, concepts, and theories.

Understanding why one does what he does is of paramount importance in starting this process. Lately I have sen the term 'valuebluff' come up frequently. I have also seen some disdain torward the term by many very respected posters/players. I believe the reason for their shun (and I tend to agree) is that by using it, you pardon yourself of any responsibility with your subsequent actions. Street by street you may be changing from a value bet to a bluff bet depending upon the infinite circumstances that arise. But each bet, taken in isolation must have a direct motive. Again, your actions may change even on the same street but that does not absolve you for having a reason to making a given bet.

A simplified example of this would be you raising from the BT with AK and having the BB call. The flop comes 269r. The BB checks. Are we to say that a bet by you is a 'valuebluff' since you hope to fold out mid pairs but get value from two big cards that are stubborn like AQ for instance? Sounds indecisive to me. Depending upon the numerous factors that go into this hand (opponent, image, recent play, history, stacks, etc...) your bet or check will be a direct result of that. Sometimes this bet can be for value and sometimes this bet will be a bluff. But if you are not sure which one it is at the time, then you are not doing your jobin making sound decisions based on gathered information. The idea is to continue to define/shrink your opponents range as the hand plays out. The larger his range remains by the end of the hand, the more you are lost and thus relying on '2 way bets' or even worse, guessing completely.

I guess what I am trying to say is that if you don't understand what your intentions are when betting then in essence you are either being outplayed in the given hand or you are playing above your skill level. Justifying it by saying you hope worse hands call and weaker hand fold is a copout. Most likely, if you are relying on this too often, it is infact your range that is diminished allowing your opponent to exploit you. Your decisions should be based on information that allows you to define his range to a point where you can be fairly certain what reaction your opponent will have in rsponse to your actions. '2 way bets' seems to be the opposite of this ideal. As your opponent adjusts to skew his range, you must also adjust in ways of making thinner value bets, tightening up, etc...

Beyond this are other brainstorms/ides/concepts that I have been thinking about lately. They are in no particular order....

- When OOP draw more liberally to nut gutter draws by c/c more. Lead out more when holding a non nut draw with rainbow boards. The idea is to not mind being blown off your hand if you get raised with the non nut draw. Your lead out is intended to win the pot right there Most of the value lies in the FE. Ofcourse if you are called you have outs, and if you are raised you can just fold no worries. With the nut draw you would like to see a card since your implied odds are directly coorelated to the lack of reverse implied odds.

- When OOP with a marginal hand, make 'blocking/value' bets on the turn to try and get to a free showdown. Conversely, when in position make small turn bets/raises to get to free showdown. This concept seems obvious but often gets overlooked or misplayed. Understanding 'pot control' and 'showdown value' in its entirety directly related to these type bets/lines. Being able to execute these concepts is a often a direct result of your turn play.

- When floating OOP, the idea is to get a free turn card, not to bluff at it. This concept should seem trivial but I am amazed at how often I see people spew when they float OOP with something like a gutter draw and then donk the turn when an apparent blank hits. The idea behind your theoretically bad play on the flop in taking the worst of it pot odds wise is to make up for it in implied odds. If you are able to call the flop and get 2 cards then that should be the play of choice. Not only does that maximize the chance of you hitting but allows you to represent even more if you miss come river. If you are up against a habitual double barreller then maybe you should rethink your line from the flop on.

- Don't be afraid to turn your hand into a bluff if the turn will bring a tough spot where you may even lose EV. This concept was touched on in a whitelime threadand seemed to fade (on purpose I believe since this is a powerful concept). Often you will find yourself in a position where you can comfortably assess that you are ahead but your hand may be so vulnerable that you make a play to make worse hands fold. Obviously this goes against FTOP but in many cases this may be best. I posted a hand a while back that seemed to touch on this idea. Say you raise A7 OOP and flop 743 two tone. You can rightly assume you have the best hand often enough to consider any bet you make for pure value. But, if the hand continues beyond the flop you may either get outdrawn or outplayed since most of the deck works against you. In this case you hope to end the hand as soon as possible since you will have no way of knowing what to do come turn/river with any sense of confidence. So, you may want to go for a c/r here. This shows the most strength and will end the hand more often then a typical c-bet. If it gets checked through, you can start to exercise pot control since you have little invested and are in an uncomfortable spot.

- With borderline/marginal hands, deciphering whether your hand is a bluff or has value will ultimately dictate which streets to get aggressive on. Say you have 76s in the BB in a HU pot. The flop comes J62r. Depending upon the infinite factors that go into playing poker, you will have decide whether to c/c, c/r, c/f, b/f, or b/3b. Determining which of these lines to take will depend on your interpreting the value of the given hand. Understanding WHY you take a given line will be a direct result in your ascent in poker.

There are countless more ideas but I will stop for now. I hope some of you that are new to 2+2 (and you vets) can take a little something outta this ramble. I do realize my thoughts are spastic but oh well.....its the weed talkin.

[spexel]

great post

[Teh1337zor]

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great post

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[creative]

nice!

[Bigmoney]

tl/dr

[captainwacky]

great post, but there are two things I disagree with:

Your stance on making 'blocking or small value bets' on the turn while out of position: If you have anyone at your table who sees you do this with a marginal hand more than once, they will exploit it to no end, and just either raise your turn bet or call and then fire big on the end. Furthermore, if you didn't have the betting lead in the first place, then this is just asking to get raised by a good aggressive player. Also, I disagree with what you said about floating. The sole purpose of floating is not to just pick up a draw and get there... That would probably cost you a ton of money. If you call a first barrel and then have it checked to you, a lot of time this is an opponent just giving up. Why let them hit something and or provide them with a reason to (correctly) assume that you have nothing and therefore make a thin call on the river if you don't hit. I think that the frequency in which you bet and check behind should be mixed up a great degree, depending on whether or not your opponent has a propensity to c/r, or c/c you down, or if they are just extremely transparent and are giving up at that point. Oh, and also it depends on how good your hand improves to on the turn.

Other than those two, I agree with pretty much everything your post said; very nice in total.

[jlocdog]

captainwacky,

Appreciate the compliments.

As for your disagreements....

When I spoke about blocking bets, I was not referring to a standard by any means. I just wanted to put out there that very often people who are OOP get either blown off their hand or pay too much to get to showdown when they have 'something'. Ofcourse you can't take any line everytime or an observant opponent will run you over.

Also, just because you didn't have the lead preflop or on the flop does not mean that donking a turn will always get raised. If it does then obviously you have something to exploit on them. As in any conversation that deals with exploitablity, it is all a matter of constant adjustments. Vanveen once wrote a brilliant line when he said, 'Ascertaining whether or not your recent aggression has triggered an exploitable adjustment is what constitutes skill'. Profound in so many ways. If donking the turn will create a leak in your opponent then it is your duty to adjust to that in order to capitalize.

As for your second disagreement, My floating example I believe was when OOP. So you will never have anything checked to you. My example was when floating with a gutter. As a general rule of thumb I stand by my statement of looking to gain a free turn. Yes there are spots where you would disregard this. Most notably is when you float preflop OOP with a given hand and flop nothing. Now you may call a flop bet in order to specifically donk the turn. But this play should be rare as it is an expensive way to run a bluff with mild success rate. Yes it should be in your bag of tricks. But it certainly is not the norm unless yoou have a good feel for your opponent, ie, he is a weak tight wimp who shuts down consistantly after firing his standard c-bet. Even then, you might just c/r the flop against this guy. The float/bluff line OOP is risky and if you are to go for it, I think hoping to gain a free turn and then being able to represent that much more on the river is a better play overall.

[jlocdog]

Just to add.....these ideas I mention are in no way 'standards'. They are meant to make you think about board texture and how it relates to your opponents range. As I said above, if you are not able to consistantly narrow your opponents range, then either you are doing something wrong or he is doing something right.

[Ship Ship McGipp]

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tl/dr

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[BalugaWhale]

if i don't really know my opponent
and i raise AK and he calls in position
and the flop is 269r

i dont know if i am cbetting for value or as a semibluff
but, i am inadvertedly doing either often enough to make it +EV

btw, this does NOT mean i am merging my range or some stupid shtt like that.