bottom pair autofold?

TheCount212 · #1 07-02-2007, 02:30 PM

General question.. sorry if boring. I have noticed that only the most horrible of live 3/6 players will religiously call down after flopping bottom pair. I assume that in a multiway pot with no draws that tenaciously clinging to BP is always a mistake. I also assume that sticking with BP is right when only 2 or less players are in AND there's also a draw to a straight or flush available. Is this correct thinking?

KitCloudkicker · #2 07-02-2007, 02:36 PM

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General question.. sorry if boring. I have noticed that only the most horrible of live 3/6 players will religiously call down after flopping bottom pair. I assume that in a multiway pot with no draws that tenaciously clinging to BP is always a mistake. I also assume that sticking with BP is right when only 2 or less players are in AND there's also a draw to a straight or flush available. Is this correct thinking?

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it depends on the pot size, if you're closing the action, etc.

in a raised multiway pot preflop it is often (in fact usually) correct to call with bottom pair on the flop.

a multiway flop with no draws is often the safest place to call with bottom pair as there will be few redraws if you improve to the best hand.

TheCount212 · #3 07-02-2007, 02:46 PM

So if I have 76s and the flop comes AK7r I will normally c/f if there are more than 2 others in the hand. If there are no raises it's right to c/c and go to the turn? Normally I wouldn't try to see the turn, even w/ faint hopes for a backdoor flush, but I'm trying to see if I'm giving up too soon... because my general policy is to fold too soon rather than too late, and I don't like chasing unless the pot is big.

KitCloudkicker · #4 07-02-2007, 02:50 PM

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So if I have 76s and the flop comes AK7r I will normally c/f if there are more than 2 others in the hand. If there are no raises it's right to c/c and go to the turn? Normally I wouldn't try to see the turn, even w/ faint hopes for a backdoor flush, but I'm trying to see if I'm giving up too soon... because my general policy is to fold too soon rather than too late, and I don't like chasing unless the pot is big.

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e.g. UTG opens, 4 callers, you call in BB with 76s.

Flop is A86. you check, UTG bets, 2-3 (or whatever, doesnt matter really) callers. You should peel always.

Also a BDFD counts as 1.5 outs, so you should take that into your pot odds calculation.

Dont underestimate the "value" of chasing...its often the best play.

TheCount212 · #5 07-02-2007, 02:53 PM

Okay I can live with that. But I'm c/f'ing the turn UI everytime, am I not? This has been an autofold situation for me, so I want to plug a leak if that's what it is.

Harv72b · #6 07-02-2007, 03:18 PM

A general answer for your general question:

Do you have the correct pot odds to draw with your made hand? I.E., 5-outer adjusted for backdoor draws/counterfeits etc. If so, you call. If not...

Do you believe that your bottom pair (or similarly weak made hand) is going to be good a fair percentage of the time? If so, you call. If not (and your answer should usually be "not"), you fold.

This of course applies to multiway pots. Heads up, your bottom pair is obviously going to be good more often, and thus you should be taking it to showdown more often (against most opponents).

TheCount212 · #7 07-02-2007, 03:27 PM

Thanks. Sounds like I'm on the right track... I didn't think of it in those well-defined terms, but that's pretty much what I'm doing.

Like I said, I've seen lots of bad players go to the river with any little tiny piece of a flop.. about as many times as I've seen them take their 55 to the river with no draws and a board full of overcards =P

jjshabado · #8 07-02-2007, 07:45 PM

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Okay I can live with that. But I'm c/f'ing the turn UI everytime, am I not? This has been an autofold situation for me, so I want to plug a leak if that's what it is.

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Many times, but not always. If you still feel that you have 4 or 5 solid outs then you could be getting odds to call. Being able to adjust to the pot size is one of the things that makes you better then your opponents. Most of low-limit players don't see the difference between calling to the river with bottom pair on a draw-safe board with 15BB in it, and calling to the river with bottom pair on a 7-8-9 flop with 6BB in it.

TheCount212 · #9 07-03-2007, 12:54 PM

Yeah I getcha.. chase when the money is right.