PS 4/180, last 16. Where did I went wrong?

vixnu · #1 06-22-2007, 01:28 PM

The following hands happened in a 4/180 at Stars. In less then 1 orbit I saw my chips vanished. Where did I went wrong?

1st hand:
Blinds: 400/800/50
Hero: 20639 in chips
UTG+1: 19062 in chips

PokerStars (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of 50. UTG+1 posts a blind of 50. MP1 posts a blind of 50. MP2 posts a blind of 50. CO posts a blind of 50. Hero posts a blind of 50. SB posts a blind of 50.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero (poster) raises to 4000, 2 folds, UTG+1 raises all in, MP2 folds, CO folds, Hero folds.

2nd hand:
Blinds: 200/400/50
Hero: 16539 in chips
Button: 19179 in chips

PokerStars (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of 50. UTG posts a blind of 50. UTG+1 posts a blind of 50. MP1 posts a blind of 50. Hero posts a blind of 50. CO posts a blind of 50. Button posts a blind of 50.
3 folds, Hero (poster) raises 2400, 1 fold, Button raises all-in, 2 folds, Hero folds.

3rd hand:
Blinds: 600/1200/75
Hero: 13864 in chips
Button: 14813 in chips

PokerStars (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of 75. MP2 posts a blind of 75. CO posts a blind of 75. Button posts a blind of 75. SB posts a blind of 75. UTG posts a blind of 75. UTG+1 posts a blind of 75.
5 folds, Button (poster) calls, 1 fold, Hero raises all-in, Button calls.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

SonofDjugashvili · #2 06-22-2007, 01:41 PM

I recently played a few 4/180's just to try out some strategy variations. One thing that became abundantly clear - don't make fancy bluffs. You are playing against dolts - so no point raising early limpers with 98. Either he had AK, AA, KK or he is an idiot that doesn't know enough to fold (though he was smart enough to RAI, not call). In general be wary of EP limpers - if you want to play your 98 there just call. But, it's really a fold. The 2nd hand is read-dependant. I can see it if the table is weak-tight, but normally just fold. Again, you are essentially bluffing bad players - don't do it. Hand #3 is standard - easy AI.

vixnu · #3 06-22-2007, 01:47 PM

I read some posts in this forum advocating the stealing from early limpers in MTT. Do you think that it only makes sense for higher buy-ins tournaments? Shall I play this 4/180s more solidly?

Does it make a difference if I raise all-in with my mediocre hands (98 and QT) instead of just raising?

SonofDjugashvili · #4 06-22-2007, 02:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I read some posts in this forum advocating the stealing from early limpers in MTT. Do you think that it only makes sense for higher buy-ins tournaments? Shall I play this 4/180s more solidly?

Does it make a difference if I raise all-in with my mediocre hands (98 and QT) instead of just raising?

[/ QUOTE ]

The worse your opposition, the more straightforward you play. Sure, you won't make fancy steals, but your big hands will get paid off in spades. E.G. I raise limper to 4X BB from SB with AA and he calls. I 1/2 pot bet flop, turn, and river for all his chips because he caught a pair to his 76. Good players fold that obviously. OTOH if I had AK, missed the flop and fired 3 bullets for all my chips I would have been the idiot. In 4/180, assuming normal stacks, play straight forward, make hand, collect stack. You can start making fancier plays in 10/180 & 20/180 but don't overdo it.

Dunkman · #5 06-22-2007, 02:27 PM

Yeah the first hand isn't good at most 4/180 tables, these guys don't fold, so don't try to make them. There isn't anything wrong with the second hand, you just get reraised and have to fold sometimes. Last hand is alright I think, although it's pretty read dependent, because people don't limp the button too often. If I had seen him do that a time or 2 before I like pushing a lot more. As an aside, it kinda looks like your table imagine may have sucked, with people counting on you to raise whenever it gets to you and no one has shown aggression. A guy limped called a shove, then limped and 3-bet AI, then repopped you on the button. It may just be the hands you chose to show, but always try to be aware of your table image and what you can get away with. If you just show blind aggression, people are going to start calling you light and looking to set you up.

sapsuckah · #6 06-22-2007, 02:28 PM

What SoS says is good for the most part.

But statements like raising over limpers in MTTs and not bluffing in 4/180s are broad generalizations... and broad generalizations are very dangerous because every hand, every single hand, is unique and carries shades of nuance that can swing a decision from one action to another.

So don't just raise over limpers because you read somewhere that you should punish limpers. Yes, there's a time and place for it (lots of them, in fact) but there's no way of knowing if this is one of them because you don't give all stack sizes, we have no idea how everyone was playing, we don't know your image, etc.

As for SoS's generalization, it's actually pretty accurate. The vast majority of 4/180 players suck in a major way and bluffing them is usually a bad idea. But players can be bad in different ways and you certainly should not eliminate bluff-type moves from your repertoire.

Matt

SonofDjugashvili · #7 06-22-2007, 02:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What SoS says is good for the most part.

But statements like raising over limpers in MTTs and not bluffing in 4/180s are broad generalizations... and broad generalizations are very dangerous because every hand, every single hand, is unique and carries shades of nuance that can swing a decision from one action to another.

So don't just raise over limpers because you read somewhere that you should punish limpers. Yes, there's a time and place for it (lots of them, in fact) but there's no way of knowing if this is one of them because you don't give all stack sizes, we have no idea how everyone was playing, we don't know your image, etc.

As for SoS's generalization, it's actually pretty accurate. The vast majority of 4/180 players suck in a major way and bluffing them is usually a bad idea. But players can be bad in different ways and you certainly should not eliminate bluff-type moves from your repertoire.

Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course. Which leads to another generalization ;-) - OBSERVE. At 4/10/20 whatever you can pick up who is likely to be susceptible to a bluff. I am just saying, in general, it's pointless to bluff the average the 4/180 player.

vixnu · #8 06-22-2007, 05:45 PM

Am I right when I say that the 4/180 players don't pay much attention to "table images"?
I'm saying this because I usually play very tight but sometimes I try to steal some pots near the bubble, and every time I try to do this I always get action by hands like KJ or JT.