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#1
06-18-2007, 12:18 AM
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What\'s so bad about amnesty?
So GWB wants to give the illegal aliens that are here amnesty. But he can't use the word amnesty so he has to invent some hoops for them to jump through first so he can call it something else.
But honestly, what's so bad about amnesty anyway? As the prez has said we can't round up and ship 12 million people out of the country. They are already here, working, their kids are in our kids' schools. Why should I want to pull some third grader in the Bronx out of her classroom and ship her back to a life of poverty, when her parents are here working, often doing jobs Americans won't, and generally making themselves as much or more useful than many native-born US citizens? Many of them are even paying social security taxes (through fake SS cards they had to get, mainly so their employers could cover their asses). Anyway, I'm wondering how much of the outcry against amnesty has to do with actual, concrete negative consequences this would have on current citizens? (And what are those negative consequences?) And how much is simply a black & white view that lawbreakers, regardless of any other circumstances, need to be punished? And how much of the outcry boils down to simple xenophobia or racism? 
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#2
06-18-2007, 02:20 AM
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Re: What\'s so bad about amnesty?
[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, I'm wondering how much of the outcry against amnesty has to do with actual, concrete negative consequences this would have on current citizens? (And what are those negative consequences?) [/ QUOTE ] Negatives: - More crime (the Hispanic crime rate is about 3 times that of white Americans). - Higher taxes and more government (60% of Mexican immigrants wants bigger government, giving them the right to vote would be a bad idea). -Mexicans doesn't assimilate (less than half of second generation Mexican immigrants finish high school, the third and fourth generation still lags behind significantly). -Unskilled immigrants are on average a financial drain on society (only 30 percent or so of immigrating Mexicans have finished high school). [ QUOTE ] And how much of the outcry boils down to simple xenophobia or racism? [/ QUOTE ] I'm guessing <10 percent. The fact that you don't see nearly the same outcry against Indian and Chinese immigrants - who are less white - leads me to believe that racism is a small factor.
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#4
06-18-2007, 04:23 AM
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Re: What\'s so bad about amnesty?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] As the prez has said we can't round up and ship 12 million people out of the country. [/ QUOTE ] eisenhower did it in the 50's. [/ QUOTE ] Source? I don't know what you're referring to, what should I read?
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#8
06-18-2007, 07:21 AM
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Re: What\'s so bad about amnesty?
[ QUOTE ]
Negatives: - More crime (the Hispanic crime rate is about 3 times that of white Americans). [/ QUOTE ] obviously the average white american earns more money than the average hispanic american. there is a well established link between poverty and crime. give me the comparison between whites and hispanics in any given tax bracket. [ QUOTE ] - Higher taxes and more government (60% of Mexican immigrants wants bigger government, giving them the right to vote would be a bad idea). [/ QUOTE ] this argument is actually the equivilent of saying "people who disagree with me (and a more subtle implication here is that these people are less intelligent/informed) should not be allowed to have a say in government." do you not see the gigantic problem with this line of reasoning? or do you have the highest iq in the country and spend 120 hours a week studying political theory and news? [ QUOTE ] -Mexicans doesn't assimilate (less than half of second generation Mexican immigrants finish high school, the third and fourth generation still lags behind significantly). [/ QUOTE ] maybe this has something to do with the fact that illegal immigrants are marginalized in society and the general issues of poor race relations in the united states. any historically maligned ethnic group has had trouble establishing a solid foothold in countries where they are discriminated against. [ QUOTE ] -Unskilled immigrants are on average a financial drain on society (only 30 percent or so of immigrating Mexicans have finished high school). [/ QUOTE ] i will concede this point. but this does not mean it wont be incredibly expensive to find and remove all of these people. what percentage of second generation finish high school? 3rd? how do these compare to national averages? [ QUOTE ] I'm guessing <10 percent. The fact that you don't see nearly the same outcry against Indian and Chinese immigrants - who are less white - leads me to believe that racism is a small factor. [/ QUOTE ] you seem to have forgotten the past 200 years of american history. does the phrase "celestial" ring a bell? how about the ridiculous government quotas on chinese immigrants imposed in the western states? the chinese and indians are no longer maligned to the same degree because they have been largely assimilated into a part of american culture and the general stereotypes (which are still very present)about their groups are not nearly as negative or threatening. i refuse to accept that you honestly believe that the general "put up a wall" american is acting without any small belief in white american racial hegemony.
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#9
06-18-2007, 07:36 AM
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Re: What\'s so bad about amnesty?
the argument of cost to the american tax payer is a legitimate one, but if you simply choose not to provide social security, medicare and welfare to the illegals (after they are granted amnesty) until they have established a certain number of years paying taxes, that financial issue is fairly well mitigated. (im sure someone could tear this idea apart, it's just a stab at a complex problem).
obviously, the issue of poverty will come up, but on average, the people who immigrate into the united states are achieving a higher standard of living and this kind of grandfathering in of social services seems to me a legitimate compromise to offer since there are many clear benefits to less strict borders. (larger labor pool in low-skill jobs=lower costs of production=lower prices of goods=higher standard of living of average americans and legal status means higher standard of living for mexican immigrants)
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#10
06-18-2007, 10:49 AM
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Re: What\'s so bad about amnesty?
[ QUOTE ]
- Higher taxes and more government (60% of Mexican immigrants wants bigger government, giving them the right to vote would be a bad idea). [/ QUOTE ] Not even sure what you're getting at here. This argument has nothing to do with granting amnesty to undocumented workers in the US. It's simply your personal preference. [ QUOTE ] -Mexicans doesn't assimilate (less than half of second generation Mexican immigrants finish high school, the third and fourth generation still lags behind significantly). [/ QUOTE ] Define assimilate. If they pay taxes, do honest labor, and don't bother me, that's enough assimilation for me. [ QUOTE ] -Unskilled immigrants are on average a financial drain on society (only 30 percent or so of immigrating Mexicans have finished high school). [/ QUOTE ] Again, if a Mexican works in an orchard picking fruit all day, why is his educational attainment as issue? And why are they a drain on society? Unskilled labor is necessary to the economy as well. They are still productive members of society. If their labor allows me to have cheaper produce on my table, and gives their children better opportunities, why should I be against it? [ QUOTE ] The fact that you don't see nearly the same outcry against Indian and Chinese immigrants - who are less white - leads me to believe that racism is a small factor. [/ QUOTE ] No prejudice against Chinese immigrants? You must not be a student of US history. This type of outcry has accompanied almost every new wave of immigrants, including the Irish and Italians when they first began arriving in large numbers.
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