Which is more "cheating"?

[dynacraze]

Read a post on 2 plus 2 about people who hit and run or ratholing b/c they plan to do so before they enter a game. Obvioulsy in a casino, u cannot do this but online its possible. They even say a good known short stacker like Maxypaxy who plays PLO 200/400 that whenever he sits in, the whole table including mike matasow immediately sits out b/c of him. Some players also hit and run because they are not good players when they play deep stack which is probably another reason. Yet, when someone buys in full and leaves after doubling up, its not that bad according to other players.

I used to shortstack a long time ago b/c it was easier to play b/c it was either push or fold but I don't like that strategy b/c it was more like an SNG.

However also in the article, i read about a person who said hit and running is not as unethical as using those programs like Pokertracker and Pahud. I never ever used those programs b/4 and people say its a must for a serious only player. I say thats its okay to have a program that lists your sessions and how much you are up or down and how much rake you paid. HOWEVER, i learned that using these programs allows you to read ppl easily that it is really not fair. I see stats like 22/4/0.5 etc and didn't know what it meant until I found out its their aggression factor and how much of the time they put in money into the pot.

I also read stats about so called NITS that have 12/4/.5 stats... not sure if my nnumbers are right but I know the first number is low. I find it funny how players on 2 plus 2 say on the Full ring hand advice say if you have Aces and one of these nits call you preflop and the flop comes 7 4 2 and they call or raise you on the flop or turn... you should consider folding 99% of the time b/c they have a set here like 90 percent of the time. To a live player, folding would only be an option only if you knew real well how the person plays. Like i remember a hand in HSP when ted forrest had Aces and Daniel had Q10. Ted bet 5K, DN miniraised and announcers say Ted was real happy b/c he knows Daniel had a Queen and reraised to 25k. In no limit full ring online and players who use those computer stats, the player with the Aces would probably be scared of that raise and fold to a flop raise with aces on that kind of board b/c stats show that they are a nit.

Is it wrong that i believe that using these programs are more cheating than hit and running? I mean their stats DONT LIE unless their drunk or something on a friday night. It's like using these programs you know whos a TAG, LAG and a nit. I thought hit and running was unethical but i think this is even worst b/c the programs basically give YOU THE READS. I usually take notes on players like tight, aggressive etc and whenever they are on a table, i know how they play b/c i played a hand with them. But i just find this software sort of cheating. If all the sites ban pokertracker, Pahud, what would be the good players do?

Thoguhts or comments?

[MasterLJ]

Neither.

[dynacraze]

Well i also read in a thread that pokeroffice actually gives you the odds of improving when your on a draw such as 2 pair etc. I know most players know these things already but pokeroffice basically gives you insight on what to do whether fold, call or raise. I really do not like the sound of this.

Again, I don't mind it keep track of how much rake you paid and how many hands you saw or how much you won with certain hands but having those stats on unknown players is pretty unfair especially if they don't use it. I know the obvious answer is everyone should get it... so basically everyone has a good read on an unknown player. What is even worst is that these programs give better reads than live reading because a player who thinks someone think their tight can actually change gears. But in cash games NL, changing gears is not going to happen much in full ring.

[questions]

Who says "hitting and running" (in a game where success hinges upon successful deception) is unethical??? LMFAO. It is not unethical, and actually, sometimes necessary, esp. in games where you recognize that you are not as good a player as the deep stacks. Why let other players use implied odds to scare you out of your investment? Push all-in with aces and kings and let them make the tough decisions. I have no problem with "hitting and running".

[questions]

And also there is an irony in the fact that many of those who complain about bots as "unfair" are also using all these other devices to improve their own odds at the expense of the fish.

I just don't really take in the initiative in complaining, I adapt.

[Backspin20]

PT is not cheating. In my opinion its really no different then taking good notes. Just because someone might read great stats and always raises in a certain situation doesn't mean he's going to do it this time.
I have close to 200k hands in my PT and the thing is I couldn't tell you how IM going to play JJ UTG today, and my PT stats aren't going to tell you either. Get PT and try it. It can be useful, but IMO no one should rely on it THAT much for anything other then keeping track of what you mentioned.

[El_Hombre_Grande]

This is tired topic.

1. Some sites ban the use of HUDs. Thus the use of a PAHUD at a site that bans it IS CLEARLY CHEATING.

Most sites allow the use of a HUD. Thus it is CLEARLY NOT CHEATING.



If anyone requires any more explanation than this, please re-read 1 and 2 until it sinks into your thick skull.

As for shortstacking and hit and run, a similiar analysis (if you can call it that) applies.

Each site has a minimum buy in. If you could somehow manipulate the program to let you buy in shorter, then you would be cheating. Otherwise IT IS NOT CHEATING.

No site that I am aware of restricts the amount of time you must remain at a table. Thus hit and runs are NOT CHEATING.

See how easy this is?

[Bobo Fett]

[ QUOTE ]
Again, I don't mind it keep track of how much rake you paid and how many hands you saw or how much you won with certain hands but having those stats on unknown players is pretty unfair especially if they don't use it. I know the obvious answer is everyone should get it... so basically everyone has a good read on an unknown player. What is even worst is that these programs give better reads than live reading because a player who thinks someone think their tight can actually change gears. But in cash games NL, changing gears is not going to happen much in full ring.

[/ QUOTE ]
Since you don't use PT, I'm wondering if you fully understand how it works. Typical PT/PAHUD use only gives you information on hands you've played in yourself. You mention unknown players a couple of times in this post...if you're talking about having stats on players that you've never played with before, this is datamining, and is a totally seperate issue. PT is still required to datamine, but many sites do not allow datamining, and they can fairly easily prevent it for most people. I'm sure there is work-around software, but it is not widely available, and is likely against those sites' T&C's.

I see nothing unethical about PT and HUDs; datamining is another matter.

[sethypooh21]

In before lock?

[StellarWind]

One of the basic principles of poker is you never have to play. Anyone is free to cash in and leave whenever they want. Complaining about hit-and-runs is just sour grapes. It's not your money anymore.