live 6/12, KJo BN, playing overcards

[mntndrew]

BB is running well, keeps hitting sets, so hard to get a read, he's just playing good cards. EP player seems loose passive, keeps calling down to the river and folding, making me think he's calling down really weak draws. MP player is very loose passive, calls 86o in EP and calls down second pair in a raised pot; never puts in a raise after flopping top two pair. Not much of a read on the rest of the table, but they seem fairly solid.

Hero dealt K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on BN, 3 limpers including above two players, Hero limps, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop [5.3 SB]: T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
BB bets, EP, MP call.

8.3:1 and close to closing action. Easy call, or possible raise or fold?

[JJH3984]

Raising is spew. Against most live opponents including the one you described, I think this is a fold. I'm thinking RIO dictate it. Also close to closing the action and closing the action are two different things.

[KitCloudkicker]

i fold. pot is not that big. you may have almost no outs. it will be impossible to protect your hand (assuming you improve on the turn) if BB bets the turn again and EP and MP call again. you arent closing the action.

fold and look for a better spot, there will be plenty of better flops with a hand like KJo on the button.

note also that if you turn a J it gives a very problematic 4- card straight redraw.

[raphet99]

If you are going to play this hand, why not raise PF - you have position and if BB now bets out, you can easily fold flop. Otherwise you take your free card and you've only spent the same 2sb and you have a better idea where you are at.

[StrictlyStrategy]

Easy flop peel? Just because someone's running good doesn't mean they don't have a hand like T5 here.

[KitCloudkicker]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to play this hand, why not raise PF - you have position and if BB now bets out, you can easily fold flop. Otherwise you take your free card and you've only spent the same 2sb and you have a better idea where you are at.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you raise PF and the BB bets out you have to call because the pot odds would be too good.

[ProfessorBen]

I'm calling because I'm the Button and I have an assortment of backdoor draws. I can get paid off in position and the odds are close and I can likely raise/fold a K turn.

[JJH3984]

"assortment of backdoor draws"??? you have a backdoor straight draw and two dubious overcards plus you aren't closing the action.

[mntndrew]

I figure it's in the neighborhood of about 4-5 outs, and although I don't have a read on the SB, my default assumption at the live games is passivity, not expecting a check-raise especially in a pot that was unraised pre-flop.

I also prefer the KJ vs. an AJ, not just because of the better backdoor straight draw, but because I'm less likely to be reverse dominated by an ace-rag hand. I'm usually raising here if I have a hand like Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on this flop, hoping to see the river for free most of the time. I'd call QJo/KJo and think about folding AJo. How far off am I here?

Edit: Also, what is "RIO"?

[ecooke]

[ QUOTE ]
you have a backdoor straight draw and two dubious overcards plus you aren't closing the action

[/ QUOTE ]
Word... and the reverse implied odds with KJo are not good in general (I pay off too much anyway).