Making moves $20/180

Coz · #1 06-11-2007, 11:04 PM

This hand came up early on in a $20/180 tourney, opponent hadn't played too many hands but we have only been dealt around 12 hands. I have been running kinda bad latley and have found that every c-bet I have made I have been re-raised. I read this guy as thinking that my bet was a c-bet and that he could probably take it away with a raise, I thought that if he had an over pair he would have either re-raised pre-flop or slowplayed the flop. I even thought I had FE against some of the smaller pairs because he could read me for having an over pair. Good move? Is this a good flop to c-bet?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) UPF Handconverter

BB (t1190)
UTG (t3440)
UTG+1 (t1620)
MP1 (t450)
Hero (t1560)
MP3 (t1640)
CO (t1490)
Button (t1670)
SB (t2870)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises to t120, 1 fold, CO calls t120, 3 folds.

Flop: (t285) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t150, CO raises to t450, Hero raises to t1440, CO calls t920 (All-In).

Turn: (t3095) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t3095) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t3095

ItalianFX · #2 06-11-2007, 11:59 PM

I think it's too early to be opening with AJo. Maybe some other people will say the same thing, maybe not.

MJBuddy · #3 06-12-2007, 12:01 AM

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I think it's too early to be opening with AJo. Maybe some other people will say the same thing, maybe not.

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The hand simply has garbage value, and in Villain's place, I call and stack so many AJs with AQ+ doing this exact thing.

ItalianFX · #4 06-12-2007, 12:10 AM

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I think it's too early to be opening with AJo. Maybe some other people will say the same thing, maybe not.

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The hand simply has garbage value, and in Villain's place, I call and stack so many AJs with AQ+ doing this exact thing.

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As villain, how do you not see that reraise as a pair of something? I always get that "monsters under the bed" idea. If you're holding AQ, see a cbet, and then you raise, and then you see Hero reraise...I see a big hand and would probably fold my AQ.

MJBuddy · #5 06-12-2007, 12:23 AM

It's almost always read dependant.

Tight players who are having the blind creep on them get too desperate to win. And when I'm running over a table(running hot or just whupping them with good reads and good play), I'll almost always call down because everyone thinks you have nothing and play like it.

Edit: A Hand I just played was UTG pushing over 10 BB and I held AQo and dumped it. Nearly readless, I fold because people play like I do sometimes, and try to bait weakness by overplaying. "Wow he must have nothing if he doesn't want to see a flop that bad" is the mindset of someone who doubles me up. My point being: If you can't distinguish real strength from fold equity, you're folding or playing it conservative, which is why fold equity works in the first place.

bobbycharles · #6 06-12-2007, 12:29 AM

I've been guilty of this myself, and it always irks me when I do it. And dern it, I still do it sometimes.

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opponent hadn't played too many hands but we have only been dealt around 12 hands.

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How good can your read really be in 12 hands?

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I have been running kinda bad latley and have found that every c-bet I have made I have been re-raised

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God this is soooo frustrating... "It seems like every C-bet is raised and dern it, I'm gonna show you that you can't push me off with a re-raise."

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I read this guy as thinking that my bet was a c-bet and that he could probably take it away with a raise

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First, it was a C-bet. 2nd, he should be able to take it down with a raise on that board and with your holding.

After 12 hands only....I'm just guessing here, but is this the first tourney you've played today or is this one of several played already? Sounds like you're tilting to me. I often make plays like this when I'm running bad, and you know, I continue to run bad. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I think what stands out about this post for me is its title - "making moves". After 12 hands, with all of the weak players out there, this kind of move almost never works. We're way too early to be making moves. I'd reserve this kind of action for later in the tourney when people aren't prone to calling a PF raise with A6o or whatever they call with etc.

Bottom line: PF open-raise is fine. Early in a tourny, sometimes I'll limp it, sometimes I'll fold it. AJ OOP is a weak holding so be wary of late callers and don't get married to it.
Flop C-bet is ok, but I'd fold to his raise. If he's "making a move" himself early on, then more power to him. Often enough, you'll take it down right there this early.

MJBuddy · #7 06-12-2007, 12:33 AM

If I ever get Pooh-Bah status here, I'm totally writing a 10 pager on Fold Equity and Hidden, Magnified, and False strength :P. It's the thing I think most MTT players need.

This guy had the same problem as you. Got luckier on the turn, but he tried to make a really really weak move on me BvB:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero (t3520)
UTG (t4680)
UTG+1 (t4740)
MP1 (t2715)
MP2 (t9075)
MP3 (t8850)
CO (t260)
Button (t3955)
SB (t2685)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
7 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t400) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t200, SB raises to t400, Hero calls t200.

Turn: (t1200) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets t200, Hero calls t200.

River: (t1600) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: t1600

Do you see why this is so easy to read as bs on the flop?

ItalianFX · #8 06-12-2007, 12:41 AM

MJBuddy,

Explain and I'll tell you if it lines up with my thinking.

ItalianFX · #9 06-12-2007, 12:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If I ever get Pooh-Bah status here, I'm totally writing a 10 pager on Fold Equity and Hidden, Magnified, and False strength :P. It's the thing I think most MTT players need.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just do it now. I'd like to read that.

MJBuddy · #10 06-12-2007, 12:49 AM

Well not raising into my on the blind at this stage means you have a hand you don't want me to come over the top of. He simply limped, and I can outplay him postflop in position so I just checked.

I obviously have the 6; the chances of him hitting this flop with a direct pair is really hard. If he had any kind of connectors or suited cards, I'd expect him to raise into me. He just limped. So a semi-bluff with his flush draws while thinking I'm bluffing (I play BvB so incredibly straight most of the time, I don't get why anyone thinks I try to pull moves). IF he had the 6, he'd have open bet to protect any kind of suited cards I might have. If he had the 7, he might do this exact move. But he only minraised. Reread my paragraph up to here - he plays scared. The minraise was a horrible attempt to push me off a bluff. I called and he fired a second incredibly weak bet on the turn. I checked down the river to keep the pot small with two overs.

10 or so hands later, I made a move in the blinds. I haven't been caught bluffing, and I've only lost showdowns on suckouts/coinflips. I played a similar flop the same way with absolutely nothing, but I have awsome percieved strength whenever I bet or call, particularly from my left and right on the table.