SBvBB Is this standard play?

Bona · #1 07-13-2007, 08:57 AM

Sorry for the elementary question here but this hand felt awkward so I reviewed it. I didn't raise the turn after he donked into my flop raise because my kicker was so poor. I didn't fold it because, well maybe he is not betting top pair. I can't really see anything I should have done differently. Am I wrong? Should I have tested him again on the turn? Or maybe found a fold somewhere?

Oh and another elementary question. I really don't know the best default line in BvB defense. My intention was to raise any flop. Would that have been correct?

This is my first hand at the table. No reads obviously and no stats on villain at that point.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
8 folds, SB raises, Hero calls.

Flop: (4 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (6 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8 BB

Gib · #2 07-13-2007, 09:26 AM

looks fine

NIX · #3 07-13-2007, 09:59 AM

Works for me.

voyamatarte · #4 07-13-2007, 10:06 AM

I dont really know if there is a good default line. But I do like raising any flop against someone who you think would raise your blind from SB with junk hands.

halpgr · #5 07-13-2007, 10:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I dont really know if there is a good default line. But I do like raising any flop against someone who you think would raise your blind from SB with junk hands.

[/ QUOTE ]If you're not 3 betting preflop then I think you should raise any flop.

JJack · #6 07-13-2007, 10:27 AM

*grunch*

For me its standard "weak Ace" wa/wb. I play it the same.

CrMenace · #7 07-13-2007, 12:22 PM

What's with the turn donk? Villain hit two pair?

OrigamiSensei · #8 07-13-2007, 03:57 PM

As played pre-flop I think the post-flop line is fine. I think you do have to respect the turn donk and call down.

One thing I'm trying to reconcile is not 3-betting pre-flop and then raising the flop. I would suggest that in a blind war A5o is plenty to 3-bet with since we would expect to be well ahead of an unknown SB's raising range. By not 3-betting pre-flop and raising the flop you have pretty much laid your hand face up for a cognizant opponent - not that raising the flop is a mistake, quite the contrary. A pre-flop 3-bet and flop raise would be much more frightening to your opponent.

A point I'm trying to get at is that I see some tendency in the micros (and this includes me, thank you) to divorce pre-flop actions and reads from post-flop. The pre-flop and flop actions of this particular hand are highly linked. In this instance the difficulty being faced on the turn is a direct result of the previous actions. Possible thinking on this hand would go as thus:

1) Unknown opponent in blind war raises SB.
2) The range for this raise is huge.
3) We are almost certainly ahead of most that range plus we have position.
4) Therefore we 3-bet pre-flop.
5) On any safe flop we bet if villain checks and we raise if we catch a piece of the board.
6) If an ace has flopped and villain 3-bets or donks the turn we can drop into calldown mode.

Naturally this all looks very similar to what Bona actually did, but it's my contention that a pre-flop 3-bet would change our opponent's perspective of what we hold and therefore quite likely change how villain plays the hand in a way that makes it easier for us to play. In fact, I've gone through all this long-winded blathering and that's probably what I should have just written in the first place.

bozlax · #9 07-13-2007, 04:14 PM

In light of this:

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars 0.25/0.50

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think much of this:

[ QUOTE ]
6) If an ace has flopped and villain 3-bets or donks the turn we can drop into calldown mode.
...
a pre-flop 3-bet would change our opponent's perspective of what we hold

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not prepared to assume either that a .25/.50 Villan is capable of a multi-street, multi-bet bluff or aggro enough to do this with less than TP, or giving any thought at all to what we might hold.

OrigamiSensei · #10 07-13-2007, 05:24 PM

Boz, I'm not talking about bluffs or multi-street plays done by villain, I'm talking about simple ABC hand-reading - which I do think .25/.50 villains are capable of if they care at all. When Bona calls the pre-flop raise by SB and then indicates that he likes the flop with the ace isn't that practically screaming "I have an ace with a mediocre to weak kicker"? After all, if Bona had ace-broadway or even possibly A9/A8 he'd probably have 3-bet. A preflop 3-bet would greatly widen the range of Bona's possible holdings and make life much more difficult for the out of position villain, especially if said villain is holding something in the A9-A6 range.

If you believe villain is incapable of playing this way with less than top pair (and for what it's worth I agree there's a good chance you're right) are you advocating a fold somewhere rather than a calldown? Where does a calldown begin and where does a fold happen?

Last thing: assuming you're right in your characterization of villains at this level and they are completely brain-dead I still believe it's valuable for us to think about how hands like this might play out against opponents with more of a clue at the next couple levels of advancement. There are plenty of players at the 1/2 and 2/4 levels who are thinking of such things. After all, I don't want to be a micros player forever (although I may well remain a micros forum denizen for quite some time).