Nut straight on the turn w/ 2 blockers vs 2 opponents & no redraw

[AbZurrrd]

My question here is about the play on the turn. I think I have played it pretty straightforwardly, but afterwards I started asking myself some questions about my equity on the turn bet.

Here is the hand. No read on players, but the level is not fantastic (oh rly?)...it's on Bodog so I took the time to write it down nicely:

PLO $25 - 9 handed

Stacks:

Hero (MP1): $49.32
MP3: $19.11
CO : $23.95

Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG+2 calls, Hero raises to $1.10, MP3 calls, CO calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls

Pot is $5.60 (4 players)

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

checked to Hero who bets $1.50, MP3 calls, CO calls, BB folds, UTG+2 folds

Pot is now $10.10 (3 players)

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero bets $10.10, MP3 calls, CO calls (pot is now $40.40)

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Preflop: I liked my hand and I know the "25% rule". Hence i know that since I am gonna get called in all places, raising for set value does make some sense, given that my two pairs are high...plus I have two broadways.

Flop: I decided to lead weakly and fold in case of a big raise back to me. In short, I represent aces (i.e top set) or a total miss, and want to gauge how they play back at me.

On the turn, it becomes interesting since I got two callers with the nut straight, but now there are two flush draws out there so there come all the questions:

1 - In a heart beat, would most of you pot the turn as I did?

2 - When I think a little more about it, I do have the nuts, no redraw, but also two interesting cards (the lone K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] as well as the lone K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) so none of them can be on the nut flush draw...plus they didn't raise the flop, so I have a hard time putting them on a set then...so assuming there are two weak flush draws there, what is the worst equity I can have?

3 - Also I have two K's and two T's, so the freerolling case is less likely as well, but imagine someone else has a KT with a flush draw, and the other one has the other flush draw, again is it possible that it reduces my equity to the point where potting the turn is really wrong? (same question vs. bottom set and a flush draw)

4 - Given the stack sizes, they will have very little left after the turn call, so implied odds = 0. I felt comfortable playing the way I did since the stacks weren't deep, but imagine now they had me covered, and we all were deep (>100BB)...what would be the best play then?

I know that was a lot of questions, but even that hand looks kinda standard in PLO I think it's interesting and important ...

[DonCologne]

Why do you bet that weak at the flop against 4 opponents? Do you want a bigger pot, if a miracle non cubs jacks comes? You are drawing to 3 nut-outs and maybe 4 other outs and so a weak bet with not any fold equity is mosttimes money you loose.

Either bet pot (not the best idea against 4 opponents OOP), with a chance everybodys fold or play check/fold.

At the turn it is likley you are the only guy with the nuts and even against one opponents cubs flush draw and the other guys spades flush draw + maybe outs for an full house your pot equity is greater than 33% and you have some fold equity against non nut flush draws. So the potsize bet is fine, espacially your 2 opponents have not much money left.

[AbZurrrd]

I guess my weak lead was more of a blocking bet somehow...leading so I can see a cheap turn if no one flopped a monster, in which case they play back at me and I'll know where I stand. At this limit, on Bodog, people love to pot any flop when the PF raiser just checked. I wanted to avoid this pot bet bluff by the CO for instance and found that a small amount could represent enough strength (AAA) and make them think twice about potting. I was myself on a draw, so I tried to see that turn cheaply. Was it really that bad of a play? As you said, betting the pot OOP vs 4 opponents is quite risky there, but on the other hand, an automatic check/fold on the flop would sadden me lol

[Kala1928]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess my weak lead was more of a blocking bet somehow...leading so I can see a cheap turn if no one flopped a monster, in which case they play back at me and I'll know where I stand. At this limit, on Bodog, people love to pot any flop when the PF raiser just checked. I wanted to avoid this pot bet bluff by the CO for instance and found that a small amount could represent enough strength (AAA) and make them think twice about potting. I was myself on a draw, so I tried to see that turn cheaply. Was it really that bad of a play? As you said, betting the pot OOP vs 4 opponents is quite risky there, but on the other hand, an automatic check/fold on the flop would sadden me lol

[/ QUOTE ]

You didnt hit the flop at all so nothing wrong with check/folding. The 1/5 pot bet makes no sense at all.

[mixmastermattyk]

Your flop bet is AbZurrrd, lol. I'm not sure why you want to see a turn so badly, DonCologne pretty much summed up the fact that you are drawing to 3 nut outs. By betting out to see a turn 'cheaply' you are only losing yourself money. You have 0 fold equity and will be called by everyone with a sniff of a draw and don't have enough equity in the pot against 4 random hands to make putting even that much money in the pot profitable. Check/folding makes the most sense here. If there were only 2 opponents or maybe even 3 I might put out a serious bet here on the flop trying to rep aces (your 1/5 pot bet here does not rep aces at all - would you really bet such a ridiculously small amount onto a draw heavy flop like this with aces?) but it really isn't worth it with this many people hanging around.

An automatic check/fold should not sadden you if you want to try and become a winning player.

[AbZurrrd]

Thanks for the info guys. I agree with what has been said in the present case...the flop bet was bad.

Concerning blocking bets in PLO, well let's imagine now you called a PF raise OOP and see the flop HU. If you flop a decent draw (9<#outs<15) wouldn't you try to lead into the PF raiser w/ a small bet (~40% of the size of the pot) to avoid that the PF raiser c-bet the pot? A pot bet would seem too risky imo and a check call quite passive (and letting him the control of the betting) so in short...is a blocking bet always a no-no in PLO vs NLHE?

I am a n00b at PLO and although I have been winning at PLO25 for my 1st 6K hands (=not much I know), I still can't figure out how to play draws OOP in big bet poker, so I'm quite interested in ur insights