Playing a draw/bluff OOP too aggressively?

muddydog · #1 05-23-2007, 09:26 AM

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($43.50)
Button ($66.50)
SB ($80.10)
Hero ($49)
UTG ($23.60)
MP ($13.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.50, 1 fold, CO raises to $2.25, 1 fold, SB calls $2, Hero calls $1.75, UTG calls $1.75.

OK at this point the flop comes down all diamonds and I have a high one. I am out of position though, is this a spot I should just check fold? I figure the lead in has to be scary, maybe I can take the pot down right now. Looking back if I'm going to do this should it be a larger bet?

Flop: ($9) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $5.5, UTG folds, CO calls $5.50, SB folds.

Cut off calls, at this point I put him on a high pocket pair that doesn't want to give up yet. He could easily have a high diamond though so I will evaluate again on the next street.

Turn: ($20) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $10, CO calls $10.

I probably would have given up at this point but I just picked up an up and down straight draw and figure he might fold to continued aggression, if not I figure I have a lot of possible outs. I do not put him on the flush draw as being likely because he was the preflop raiser, it is possible but not as likely as it would be if he were a preflop caller in my experience.

River: ($40) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $10, Hero raises to $30.5, CO calls $15.75 (All-In).

At this point I think if I check to him with a diamond in his hand it's possible he'll bet out for value, and have a hard time folding any when I raise due to pot odds. Note with the king out there there's only one card in the deck that beats me, do you like this play?

Final Pot: $96.25

fabadam · #2 05-23-2007, 10:07 AM

I fold preflop, I don't want to play a potentially dominated hand OOP, especially multiway like this pot.

The rest of the hand you badly suffer from your bad position. The flop bet is sort of OK as a semi-bluff.

I would check/fold-or-call the turn, depending on the size of his bet.
I would just call the river, I think he's only calling your c/r when he has you beat.

crovax4444 · #3 05-23-2007, 10:10 AM

fold pre
Check the flop
Wtf are you doing on the turn...., check
River, c/c

You spewed on every street

Edit: I didn't see he had 2nd nut flush, in that case, I like the river and he only screwed up 3 streets instead of 4

Crovax

Supwithbates · #4 05-23-2007, 10:13 AM

check call river is bad please bet the 2nd nuts on river he will call with more flushes than he bets with... srsly
since you checked, call, but shoving is sooo bad

prodonkey · #5 05-23-2007, 10:14 AM

easy fold preflop.

I don't hate the rest.. but it sure looks like he was calling with a big diamond.

muddydog · #6 05-23-2007, 10:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
check call river is bad please bet the 2nd nuts on river he will call with more flushes than he bets with... srsly
since you checked, call, but shoving is sooo bad

[/ QUOTE ]

I see your perspective on it now a smaller flush probably doesn't bet here you're right. More likely to get value out of a smaller one calling.

muddydog · #7 05-23-2007, 10:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
fold pre
Check the flop
Wtf are you doing on the turn...., check
River, c/c

You spewed on every street

Edit: I didn't see he had 2nd nut flush, in that case, I like the river and he only screwed up 3 streets instead of 4

Crovax

[/ QUOTE ]

When I started playing this game I was very loose weak player, I think somehow my game has gone from a good mix to being an overly loose aggressive donk fighting for every pot whether it's plus ev or not. Thanks for the smack in the head I need to get my head back on straight. I've been a winning player over 20K hands at 10BBs, I guess I'm starting to overestimate the value of aggression and am playing too many pots. I'm at +30 vpip, when I started at under 20 no wonder I find myself in these positions so frequently.

Must...learn...to fold...preflop...flop...turn...

seriously has anyone else had this problem? Maybe I'm just starting to get bored and making the game harder than it is, I'm constantly putting myself in these ultra marginal situations and it's hard to make myself stop.

prodonkey · #8 05-23-2007, 10:37 AM

Is it really that hard to fold KQo out of position to a preflop raise? I'm just curious, cuz I'm tight, and I do this without really any thought.

How many tables are you playing?

You're not going to win in the long run at over 30vpip unless you can read hands like a god.

muddydog · #9 05-23-2007, 10:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Is it really that hard to fold KQo out of position to a preflop raise? I'm just curious, cuz I'm tight, and I do this without really any thought.

How many tables are you playing?

You're not going to win in the long run at over 30vpip unless you can read hands like a god.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play four tables, at first that was enough to keep me really busy and to keep me from putting too much money in but I'm finding that now that I can keep up with the games I tend to get bored just folding. But I also have very little time to play now, I just had a baby so an hour is a lot of time for me to be able to play given my situation and I don't get much sleep anymore, so maybe that's part of it too lol. I just want to continue to become a better player but it seems like I'm morphing into an an action junky without realizing it until I post the hands.

Nonfiction · #10 05-23-2007, 10:47 AM

Fold preflop. Rest of the hand, not sure. Any reads? CO plays this like he may have either flopped the flush or as Ad. He smooth calls to the river where he bets. This is very read dependant.