Standard bluff raise vs 4 opponents?...yeahhhh

[RiverFenix]

Havent played much recently. Thought this was kinda interesting. Raise>fold>call or fold>raise>call?

BB - Solid sLAG, only thinking player at the table. Were playing on 4 diff tables together. He covers
SB - $50, too loose, retarded, standard shortstacker
UTG+1 - $100, unknown, 30/10/1 after 50 hands or so
CO - $90, unknown, 20/10/1 after 50 hands or so
Hero - $115, been pretty quiet overall but active last 2-3 orbits. Prob 17/15/3 or so.

.5/1 6 handed
Hero has A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] UTG

PF: Hero raises to 4, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, BTN folds, blinds call

FLOP ($20): K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Checks, Hero complains about lack of respect, checked around

TURN ($20): J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB bets $2, BB raises to $12, Hero raises to 35



Anyway. As long as people behind me dont wake up I can easily convince BB I have exactly JJ here I believe. I don't hate being ai vs SB but its really close I think. Risk/Reward worth it?

[tuuufts]

I think there's a good chance one of your opponents is holding a J, making your rep of JJ pretty hard to believe. I think this is spew, the pot isn't that big, somebody could have checked a set on the flop and we're 6 handed. Just fold.

[cs3]

why is calling so terrible?
i really dont like your raise at all. if they fold its becasue they have weaker hands - none of which call the raise. nobody is folding a K now after you checked the flop.

and if anyone calls/pushes youre crushed.

[RiverFenix]

Tufts,
I dont think anyone behind me has a set ever after checking the flop. I dont think SB has a set with his small donk. BB could have a set but he'd prob lead flop at least 1/3rd the time I assume. So I think anyone having a set is really unlikely except for possibly BB. If he does and I call $12 here it's a ridiculous river spot where I'm not sure where I'm at while on the flop I've only spent another 20bb to know where hes at.
The pot is big, fighting for 30bb+ pots is important. I think if you said I havent invested much as an important to reason to fold I'd agree.

cs3,
I think calling is awful because I increase the odds for anyone drawing and it puts me in a bad spot on the river. By raising I decrease the odds for anyone drawing, increase likelyhood of someone folding a K (I'm reraising cold which really looks strong), and if I'm called I still have initative on the river and can check back or bet.

If anyone but SB pushes I think I'm clearly crushed but it only cost me an extra 23bb to find that out while I think the reasons I listened above counter out the cost. Plus if I just call thats 12bb and I'll almost never win on the river (draws + I cant take another bet) so its a waste there.

[cs3]

[ QUOTE ]

cs3,
I think calling is awful because I increase the odds for anyone drawing and it puts me in a bad spot on the river. By raising I decrease the odds for anyone drawing, increase likelyhood of someone folding a K (I'm reraising cold which really looks strong), and if I'm called I still have initative on the river and can check back or bet.

[/ QUOTE ]


if you raise and are called you are still in a bad (worse) spot on the river. why couldnt BB be raising a J or worse afer SB makes that rediculous turn bet? adn why do you think any of these donks would ever fold a K here?

exactly which draws are you protecting against? protecting vs 2 outers is not a good idea when you really dont even know if youre ahead.


[ QUOTE ]

If anyone but SB pushes I think I'm clearly crushed but it only cost me an extra 23bb to find that out while I think the reasons I listened above counter out the cost. Plus if I just call thats 12bb and I'll almost never win on the river (draws + I cant take another bet) so its a waste there.

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree with both of these points. i think youre good often enough + see see a free showdown often enough to justify calling.


also, i agree with tuuufts that folding is better than raising.