PLO8 MTT, A4JJ mp facing mini raise, playable?

bFunk · #1 05-13-2007, 05:18 PM

Pretty sure my preflop call was loose. If I had a suited A would it be acceptable. Also I think I really mangled the turn and should have bet it.

Poker Stars
Pot Limit Omaha Tournament $20+2
Blinds: t15/t30
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t1285
UTG+1: t2990
MP1: t2173
Hero: t1065
MP3: t1415
CO: t1955
Button: t1067
SB: t1970
BB: t1705

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP2 with 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG calls t30 (pot was t45), UTG+1 folds, MP1 raises to t60, Hero calls t60 (pot was t135), MP3 calls t60 (pot was t195), 2 folds, SB calls t45 (pot was t255), BB folds, UTG calls t30 (pot was t300).

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t330, 5 players)
SB bets t30, UTG calls t30 (pot was t360), MP1 calls t30 (pot was t390), Hero calls t30 (pot was t420), MP3 calls t30 (pot was t450).

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t480, 5 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks.

River: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t480, 5 players)
SB checks, UTG bets t480, MP1 folds, Hero raises all-in t975, 2 folds, UTG calls t495 (pot was t1935).

Results:
Final pot: t2430

jcx · #2 05-13-2007, 05:36 PM

Your pf call is fine, it's early, it doesn't cost you too much and you can win a huge pot if you connect. I would have raised the flop, you have an overpair and 2nd nut lo draw (also you are in late position and nobody seems to love their hand currently given the post oak flop bet & calls). Not betting the turn on that draw heavy board with that many players is courting disaster. Blast away, many will call with a naked lo draw. You got very lucky here.

Rush17 · #3 05-13-2007, 11:02 PM

The preflop call is Ok, but if the initial raiser was known to only raise really strong hands, then the call is questionable, but as jcx pointed out, it was early and it wasn't costing you that much.

I'm torn on the flop. I'm not sure if I would raise it here or not. The only thing that I do like is that you have the Ace of diamonds and a raise might fold off a non-nut flush draw, which at that point, I would want as many folders as possible. But because the sb bet and you did hold the diamond Ace, I have to put him on either a nut low draw or perhaps a top pair/draw kinda hand. I just HATE these min. bets cause you never know what they really mean and because it was still early in the tourney, I'm not sure if I want to try and put in a big raise here because you might spend 1/3+ just trying to achieve that and this flop wasn't THAT great for your hand. I'm just gonna call and see what rolls off on the turn.

On the turn when they check to you, I think you have to bet pot here. There's only one hand that beats you and noone has taken interest in it. BET, BET, BET! And don't bet a wimpy amount, you should think about accumulating chips and the way to do that is to bet. One, if they all happen to fold after you bet, well you still added a good amount to your stack...and you should be betting to charge the low draws. Plus, you don't want to give a free card to a high gutter-straight draw either. Make them pay.

The river is a push for me, too. NH. (I hope)

bbartlog · #4 05-14-2007, 08:37 AM

I would pot this flop. You have a two-way hand, and you have the A of diamonds in hand as well, which makes it harder for someone to call you. If you can't take it down right away you can at least hope to get it HU against a hand you have beat one way.

I don't like the preflop call so much. I don't think 60 of a 1065 stack is that small, and the hand is pretty speculative.

Fletch46 · #5 05-16-2007, 01:55 AM

First let me say that I'm really new at this game but because I'm new, I've been doing a lot of reading lately.
So based on what I've picked so far, I wouldn't play this hand. First it's got a "dangler". Even if the Ace is suited, I don't like it. It's early but I think there's probably a better place to get your money in. Everything I've read stresses playing 4 cards that work together. You can't always wait for that but at this blind level, why throw away $60? If you make a low, you could easily be counterfeited.

I haven't played an PLO8 MTT yet but staying away from this type of hand is serving me well in the cash games. I'd appreciate any feedback if I'm totally out to lunch on this.

bFunk · #6 05-16-2007, 05:45 AM

I don't think A4JJ counts as having a dangler. In high only the 4 would be a dangler, but in O8 it gives my hand some nut low potential. What I'm looking for here is to hit a set of Jacks and have a strong two way hand with the A4 giving me some low potential, hopefully also hitting a 2 or 3 to give my low a better chance. I felt it was a bit loose, but also figured this sort of hand could win a big pot by hitting a big two way hand.

flavius · #7 05-16-2007, 06:19 AM

Its like jcx said, early on its a small amt of your stack and when you hit the flop right many people will commit all of their chips and double you up.

MaLiik · #8 05-16-2007, 01:32 PM

The ace should be suited, this is however early in the tourney so folding the hand is ok if you miss the flop.

Gone Forever · #9 05-16-2007, 01:45 PM

Hey, buddy. The advice that everybody has been giving you about calling with this hand is horribly flawed. The school of thought that "it's only a small portion of your stack" will constantly have you playing bad hands and more times than not it's going to cost you chips.

Here's the deal, since the blinds are so small at the early stages of a tournament you don't have to play. You have plenty of time to sit back and wait for good quality hands.

The 1500 in chips you start off with is actually more valuable than the, let's say, 30,000 chips you may have later on. If you lose 1000 chips early in the tournament that's = to 2/3 of your stack where as if you lose 1000 chips later on that's only equal to 1/30 of your stack. The difference is huge and it's a very strong argument for playing tight in the early stages of a tourney.

Dan Harrington has a series of books called "Harrington on Hold 'em". The first two books are essentially to tournament Hold 'em what Doyle Brunson's Super System is to cash game Hold 'em.

I know you're probably asking why I'm talking about a book on Hold 'em. Well, here's why. While his books are specifically geared towards Hold 'em, some of the concepts he talks about can be applied to tournament poker of all kinds.

Harrington came up with a system that will dictate to you how loose or tight you should be playing given your current stack size. It's a simple formula and it's very easy to use in the heat of battle.

You simply add the amount of the total blinds (plus if there's an ante, but, I don't believe you need to ante in O8 tournies.... at least not on Full Tilt) anyway, take the total amount of the starting pot before anybody acts and divide that number into your current chip stack. The number you will get is called your "M". Here's a couple examples:

Blinds = 15/30 your stack = 1500

15 + 30 = 45

45/1500 = 33.33333

So your M is a little over 33. What this number tells you is the total number of times around the table with out playing a hand you can last before you are completely blinded out. So at a full table at this blind structure you'd be able to fold just under 300 times before you are out. Of course there's no way you will see 300 hands at this blind level, but, I'm sure you get the idea.

The higher the M the less pressure there is to play. You can sit and wait for great hands and hang on to your precious chips.

The lower the M the more desperate your situation and you need to accumulate chips in a hurry to avoid being blinded off.

Let's say the blinds are at 80/160 and you have a stack of 2100. Using the formula we know that our M is just under 9 (8.75). We need to start looking for hands to play. This doesn't mean play any raggy piece of garbage you get. But the hand that you described in your OP now becomes a playable hand. As soon as your M drops below 10 you want to start fishing around with some lesser hands to try to "get lucky" and gain some chips.

Your M in your OP was 23.6. This is a great spot to be in. You really wanna strive be closer to an M of 20 or higher. That's the sweet spot.

I hope this was able to help you understand why seeing a flop because it's "only a small portion of your stack" is simply bad advice. It will hurt you far more than it will help you.

Oh, and if you do play tournament Hold 'em as well, go buy Harrington's books. They are bar none the best books on tournament Hold 'em and they'll more than pay for themselves.

-Gone

flavius · #10 05-16-2007, 05:08 PM

I disagree, the M that Harrington refers to only comes into play when you become shortstacked. If this were a limit tourney in discussion I think your point would be valid because the amt to gain would be small. However, in PL you can commit a small portion of your stack Preflop and very easily double through bad players.

By waiting for quality hands you may eventually have to push in Harringtons red M level if you dont accumulate chips early.