Preflop question: 3-betting mid SC's

[sethypooh21]

Recently, I've noticed my EP raises getting 3-bet by 98s-67s not frequently but not uncommonly either. Now sometimes I think this is just LAGs being LAGs, but there have been a few times where players I respect greatly have owned me in this fashion (I think Heisenb3rg (or some other 2+2er) took a pretty large pot of me a few days ago when he flopped pair+OE+FD against my overpair)

My questions are this:

A) what are the merits of 3-betting this lightly? This only really works against TAG-types, right?

B) If I'm in EP and the Button/CO are 3-betting me this lightly, what adjustments should I make pre and post flop?

[jba]

i can do this on the button against a lot of different points if it's likely to end up heads up, the opener has a wide range, and isn't a showdown monkey. generally this means I wont be opening your utg raise but if you open in the CO and you have like a 35-45 atsb I'm taking you upstairs with 98s.

B) - cap more with big showdownable hands. like AQ/99.

[Oink]

[ QUOTE ]
A) what are the merits of 3-betting this lightly? This only really works against TAG-types, right?


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IMO its spew. But I guess it adds some deception. If villain is weak tight I can see an argument for 3-betting speculative hands, but in general I wouldnt do it.

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B) If I'm in EP and the Button/CO are 3-betting me this lightly, what adjustments should I make pre and post flop?

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cap cap cap

[nickg1532]

sethypooh,

i agree with your observations. i have noticed that TAGs 3 bet me with these hands sometimes. the other day a 21/16 3 bet my UTG raise (he was on button) with 98s. this is something i would never do, especially to another TAG.

i agree with oink that it might have merit against weak tighties. it also might have some deception value, though most people aren't paying close enough attention to make the deception worth it imo.

but in general, i can't see it being a too good a play. i might be wrong though, and i'd be interested in the other good players' thoughts on it

[danzasmack]

if a TAG is OOP with big cards I can usually VB him to death and get away from marginal hands because he is under the assumption that I won't fold anything and semi-bluffing me is a spew

It also ups the value of my big hands when I do get one in position.

[sethypooh21]

I'm also wondering what it says about my image that good players feel that this is +EV against me (I don't know Danza's SN, so he could have been the one pulling this on me, I suppose).

[danzasmack]

No, it's not me.

[danzasmack]

seth if you take this concept, step back, reread this entire forum, and think for a while, you will hate yourself for like 2-3 weeks and come back a better player

i've always said that in this forum in particular every post has value even if it is the wrong advice because you get to see how someone else thinks

[Heisenb3rg]

I'll just say if I did this to you and you were UTG I was on tilt and it's a -EV play [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

My 3-betting strategy is fairly straightforward, but I wont talk about it too much because I play too much with you guys and you know who I am :/

[sweetjazz]

[ QUOTE ]
if a TAG is OOP with big cards I can usually VB him to death and get away from marginal hands because he is under the assumption that I won't fold anything and semi-bluffing me is a spew

It also ups the value of my big hands when I do get one in position.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a great answer to (a). As for question (b)...

You have to first accept that if it is a good player 3betting you here and he's doing it selectively (i.e. not 3betting every suited connector he sees, but mixing them in based on image and such), he's taking away profit from you. Finding another table may be the best option if the table wasn't very good to begin with.

But if you do sit and stay, your adjustments should be:
(1) Play tighter in early position. Hands like KJo, QJo, A9o all can be playable UTG in certain 6handed games, but lose a lot of their value when you're being 3bet light, even occassionally. That's because the primary value of those weakers hands is that they hit the flop decently some of the time and are normally easy to check/fold UI on the flop knowing that you have well the worst of it.
(2) Cap more for value. You might also add in a deceptive cap of your own with a suited connector hand like QJs or KJs. The point is that because you're also capping a wide range of strong hands 99+/AQ+/AJs, an opponent who 3bet you with AJ or KQ or a speculative hand basically has to give up on the flop or turn UI [or lose a lot more to your value bets when you have a real hand]. Just don't overdo it and be aware when you have created an image of "I'm so frustrated that I'm starting to spew" and when you have that image, only cap strong hands for value.
(3) Postflop, add the marginal hands to their range, discounted based on how frequently you expect your opponent makes these plays. It means you should make a few more thin flop and turn calls (though this should only be to turn thin folds into thin calls) and once in a while try OOP semibluffs, e.g. with AQ on a KJ8 board, if you think your opponent will release TT/99/8x/AQ hands here. The delicate question is whether you have the image to fold these hands and whether you need to fire on the river to effect your semibluff, or whether those hands will have folded before then.
(4) Don't overdo anything because of these plays. Yes, a good player making them is taking some profit from you because they are +EV for him. But they are still thin and so much of your counter play is to play a normal game where your response postflop is to valuebet your strong hands and mix in some semibluffs with strong draws.