constantly botching

[Heir_Aparent]

i feel like i constantly botch hands like this/feel frustrated afterwards. comments on every [censored] up appreciated. whenever i put myself in a spot like this vs. an aggro, i get angry when I 'have to fold'. villain is agressive/solid so far, little to no history. he views me as agressive prob.

POKERSTARS GAME #9707671791: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($10/$20) - 2007/05/01 - 23:43:42 (ET)
Table 'Mirach III' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: Grisgra ($907.50 in chips)
Seat 3: Heir_Aparent ($613 in chips)
Seat 4: acemaxer ($854 in chips)
Grisgra: posts small blind $5
Heir_Aparent: posts big blind $10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Heir_Aparent [4s As]
acemaxer: folds
Grisgra: raises $10 to $20
Heir_Aparent: calls $10
*** FLOP *** [4h 6c Js]
Grisgra: bets $10
Heir_Aparent: raises $10 to $20
Grisgra: calls $10
*** TURN *** [4h 6c Js] [Qh]
Grisgra: checks
Heir_Aparent: bets $20
Grisgra: raises $20 to $40
Heir_Aparent: folds
Grisgra collected $119 from pot
Grisgra: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $120 | Rake $1
Board [4h 6c Js Qh]
Seat 2: Grisgra (small blind) collected ($119)
Seat 3: Heir_Aparent (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 4: acemaxer (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

I realize there isnt a lot of "value" in betting the terms in regards to the actual charging of villain when "im ahead". I guess this is sort of a question of frequencies.

I think my biggest problem is putting myself in this spot when i could be dead alrdy if i decide to call two more, while the spot is also still somewhat ambiguous (tho not rele, just frustrating to have to fold when im not 100% i guesS). My issue is, I hate check calling down in a spot liek this by default everytime. it makes you too easy to play against. I also feel like setting myself up to play perfectly on later streets, river in this case (turn too cause of b/fold obv), is something that needs to be done. all that being said, is raising this flop, betting turn, and checkin river UI ok? who expects to get Cr'd on this turn a lot? is this line better than a smooth call down, generally speaking, vs. an aggro opponent? keep in mind i have no real concept of the flow of this game yet besides what info ive included. maybe this is just one of those times where its like; take this line sometimes, the other sometimes, etc, and it varies slightly depending on the influence of some of the other factors. i mean i know thats the case i guess- but any insight on peoples general theories about these type of things would be appreciated. thx

P.S : what do we do if he 3 bets flop? easy call and fold turn UI?

[johnnyrocket]

this turn bet is awful IMO, u are going to get raised here alot by a strong player, i check turn, call river UI, same amount of money, we cant extract value nehow with a turn bet and we get to showdown for the same price and get to take notes on villain.

[joker122]

http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

[MyJunkIsYou]

interesting, this could be one of the areas that causes me to play poorly. Isn't a compelling reason to bet the turn the fact that if our opponent is drawing, we shouldn't give a free card? For all we know the turn just gave him a bunch of outs, and if we check then he will bet out on the river, which it seems to me would be value-betting us sometimes and bluffing us sometimes in an optimal proportion, thus he gains and we lose..right?

This all said, what about the line of just calling flop, calling turn, and calling all but the worst rivers?

[Hoi Polloi]

Certainly an argument can be made for you needing a free/cheap card on the turn more than your opponent in this hand.

The key for me is making SD no SD decision before taking action on the turn. If SD, do it cheap UI, if not consider making a play or c/f. Without history with this hand on this board, c/f and pick a better spot appeals to me.

In any case, I find when I just make a decision at the key point and go with it, the results don't bother me. It's all good. On the turn here, if I'm showing down, I don't want to put in more than 2BB, for sure.

It goes without saying that whatever my decision, in this case on the turn, the river card if it comes can change my plan.

[gehrig]

just call down on the flop. u can fold river if hes still betting sometimes. u dont beat aggressive players by bloating the pot with crappy showdownable hands

[The Funky Llama]

a grisgra sighting!

[HOWMANY]

[ QUOTE ]
just call down on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the best IMO. In the little bit I have been playing these games all kinds of players are just randomly donking flops with weird [censored] against me and will gladly fire all three barrels.

[gehrig]

howmany villain has the initiative and is a respected poster

[HOWMANY]

Oops, I missed that it was sb vs bb so I thought he was donking. In that case I actually think that OP's line is okay. I'll make up numbers and say that I probably call or 3bet pf something like 85/15 and that I take OP's line vs just calling down if I call something like 25/75. Just calling down he'll probably mistakenly value bet 22-33/AQ-AK plus we get to see what he bets all the way like this.

I knew the villain was a 2+2er when I was talking about the donking, I just meant that I have seen it come from every kind of player from loose passive fish to good TAG to zany LAGs and guys hopped up on goofballs.