50NL: Not losing money = winning money

Chomp · #1 04-25-2007, 01:27 PM

I know people hate multiple hand threads, but what was exceptional here is that the 3 of these hands happened almost simultaneously at 3 different tables.

Laying down AA, KK and a set all at the same time is very, very tough, but I guess these are the situations multitabling leaves you in again and again.

Comments most appreciated. Stack sizes important in each I think.

Folding is the new 3betting! Gogogogogogo folding!

Thanks.

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Hand 1: Villain unknown, but I sniffed donkishness over small stat sample and couple of previous hands

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero ($48.75)
Button ($31.90)
SB ($77.08)
BB ($71)
UTG ($118.45)
MP ($50)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.5, 3 folds, UTG calls $2.

Flop: ($5.75) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $4, UTG calls $4.

Turn: ($13.75) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets $4, Hero raises to $11, UTG calls $7.

River: ($35.75) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets $32, Hero folds.

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Hand 2: Villain solid 21/15/3 reg

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero ($64.40)
UTG ($47.45)
MP ($104.26)
Button ($50)
SB ($75.65)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP raises to $2, 2 folds, Hero raises to $6, MP calls $4.

Flop: ($12.25) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $9, MP raises to $27, Hero folds.

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Hand 3: Villain unknown

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($62.73)
SB ($82.45)
BB ($48.25)
Hero ($68.40)
MP ($50)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, Button calls $2, SB calls $1.75, 1 fold.

Flop: ($6.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets $5, Hero raises to $13, Button folds, SB raises to $21, Hero folds.

kolotoure · #2 04-25-2007, 01:29 PM

Really hate 1& 2 but i don't mind 3. I will let others post and then give my reasoning

Xanta · #3 04-25-2007, 01:36 PM

Hand one is a queen or a busted hearts draw enough on the river to call, I think. That line with a seven just makes absolutely no sense even from a donk's perspective.

Hand two, ugh. I make the pfr a bit bigger, but whatever. On the flop this is basically a pokerstove analysis type question. You do have to ask yourself if he can have AA here and if he can have AK. If villain is good I really doubt he's raising AK on the flop since it smacked your 3betting range in the face. Also, this might be QQ, I don't know. Choose a range based on your reads of the villain, stove it and then do an EV calculation.

Hand 3 is OK I think, most people at 50NL don't play big draws fast, and if he was passive enough not to 3bet AK preflop he's probably not going to go nuts on the flop with TPTK.

JPeezy55 · #4 04-25-2007, 01:40 PM

I think 3's fine, I wish I could do that more often, because I think it's likely that you're beat or he has QJs or somethinig like that, to which he has more equity than you on the flop.

On 1, I dunno, I defer to other posters, but I'd lean slightly toward calling and I think you see AQ here a fair amount.

On 2, I'm not sure what you could have him on that beats you outside of AQ and JJ (KK seems out, no?), and I think these make up a small part of his range. I think QT/QK/QJ are all quite possible along with AK and lots of two-pair hands. Hands you beat seem to make up more of his range than hands that beat you.

I think I'd shove here and hope for the best.

I also think this is a really tough spot to have happen concurrently as you describe. I took a good 90 seconds to think about these hands -- you don't have that live.

monkeymaps · #5 04-25-2007, 01:48 PM

hand 1 is a call I cant see folding this ever I think this is a Q+ flush draw alot.

hand 2 is close I prob never fold a set here but if he is solid and called your 3 bet there are some hands he could have that are ahead of you.

hand 3 I like

tarheeljks · #6 04-25-2007, 02:03 PM

hand 1: i think we often see a queen here. even though he called the turn rr, it wasn't a big rr, so i call the river

hand 2: i don't see myself laying this down. i call and pray it's not set over set.

hand 3: not really sure yet.

Waingro · #7 04-25-2007, 02:19 PM

1. why so small bets on the flop and turn? river is probably ok, this is exactly how a donk plays a 7.

2. I LOLed. don´t fold.

3. nh. nice raise, good fold.

NSchandler · #8 04-25-2007, 02:21 PM

Yeah hand 1, what 7s does he call with pf? This hand just seems weird in general. I think you see a Q with a diamond draw fairly often.

Hand 2 I don't like either. There are a number of draws he could be doing this with. I just push.

Hand 3 I'm not as sure about. I'd make your raise larger, and that would make folding to a 3-bet easier. But this could definitely be a combo draw. But even against a combo draw you're only 50/50 so folding isn't a huge mistake. I don't know, it's tough.

GtrHtr · #9 04-25-2007, 02:22 PM

I think this is an interesting topic, at least to me atm, because only recently has folding become a major focus in my game and is something I'm really working on atm. I posted this hand last night as I hadn't seen a laydown thread in a while - although what was complex to me on some level apparently is a no brainer to the 2-3 people who posted in the thread.

I think you follow your reads, and therefore in each of these hands you followed your instincts and aside from the math + reads in the hands (math is rarely discussed here) there can be some interesting threads on good vs bad fold hands.

Nice thread, interesting to see your perspective.

Chomp · #10 04-25-2007, 05:08 PM

Thanks for great replies.

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Hand 1. Meh. I think sometimes I call this and sometimes I don't. I must just not quite have had enough certainty in my mind to risk a stack here. Maybe that's not a perfect EV approach, but I tend to pick off river bluffs pretty well and this just didn't scream to me "call!" in the way bluffs often do.

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Hand 2: Looks like you are all right, and this is a bad fold.

Board: Ts Kd Jh

Hand 0: 64.336% {TcTh}
Hand 1: 35.664% {JJ+, AJs+, KJs+, AJo+, KJo+}

(Removing the K+ hands makes only marginal difference, as does widening range to include AT+.) Bah. From villains perspective he must think he has decent FE here also so a rr with most of his range here is probably a very good play by him. Yeah, bad fold (although if a gun were held to my head I'd say this particular villain had AQ here).

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Hand 3: Very impressed everyone spotted this. Villain showed TT and hero's fold was good.

Cheers.