REPOST - 80 game free showdown raise vs. me - ignore other thread

DrewOnTilt · #1 04-30-2007, 11:40 PM

Please ignore the other thread on this in its entirety. I have asked for it to be locked. I screwed up the flop suits and it was causing major confusion with all of the edits and clarifications. Let's try this again.

Here's a hand from a live 80/160 game not long ago. The table featured a number of very good players, 2 weakies, and 2-3 halfway decent players, and 1 Hero.

Villain in this hand is a player that I considered decent but not great, and a bit loose but not overly so. Example: he calls too loosely in the blinds, peels lightly on occasion, but for the most part plays his hands straightforwardly postflop. I believe that he can profit from the 2 weakies at the table while losing slightly to the stronger players. This was the first time that I had played with him, though, so my read may not be 100% accurate.

I was playing well but running poorly at this table and was stuck about 2 racks at this point. I had been laughing it up with a couple of jokesters and was in a generally good mood, so there was no reason for Villain to think that I was tilty or playing poorly.

On to the hand.

Villain open raises from late position and I defend in the big blind with Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

The flop came T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]rag[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Check, bet, call.

Turn J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
I lead/3-bet, Villain 4-bets. I puke and just call, having already made a number of expensive 2nd best hands this session.

River blank. I check, Villain checks and shows A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

After the showdown, several players whom I really respect commented that Villain played the hand very well.

Some observations:
1) His 4-bet definitely put the frighteners on me and slowed me down
2) given #1 above, his play worked perfectly, this time.
3) If I have a very solid read on him or am otherwise really feeling my Wheaties and decide to 5-bet, it's going to cost him dearly to try to outdraw me.
4) If I have a very solid read on him and check/call a club river, he gets one extra bet, but only 20% of the time.
5) If I 5-bet and then lead a non-club river, or even if I just call and donk a non-club river, he has to pay me off. The pot is too big to fold a made hand, and he does not know me well enough to muck a straight on a 3-flush board. He loses an extra 1-2 bets 80% of the time in this scenario.
6) Obviously the 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] would be mega-sweet [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Thoughts?

emerson · #2 04-30-2007, 11:56 PM

I like the Villain's play very much as well. He has the nut straight and the nut flush draw. He knows that if you do have a flush that you can't 5 bet him without the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. It worked this time and should work next time as well. He'll usually have you beat here.

HOWMANY · #3 04-30-2007, 11:57 PM

I honestly think that he should be folding to your 5bet without A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in his hand. In reality he might not, but I am pretty sure that if I had 9c7c here I would fold to the 5bet and I never fold anything. I wouldn't have 4bet the turn with that hand in the first place though. If you just call the 4bet and donk the river then he definitely has to call though because your line is sort of weird so maybe it's like 6c5c or or AxQc or something.

I actually think both you and the villain played this hand really well. You maximized on the turn against tons of his range. I probably would have c/r flop hoping to fold small pairs or gain turn FE from AJ/AQ. Obviously on the turn the villain can't just call, so his question is what to do after your 3bet. I would assume that your 3bet is not an absolute lock to mean a flush so it is still possible for his hand to be best. He is calling on the river every single time he does not make his flush and he thinks (or I assume he thinks) that you cannot 5bet because he holds A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] so he 4bets for the freeshowdown. On the other hand I am guessing you would probably bet/call a club river anyway, so perhaps it doesn't really matter.

As for your points, I really think he should be able to fold river UI after a 5bet so I don't know about point 5. However I think it is pretty much impossible for you to 5bet the turn anyway. In the heat of battle you will not be thinking about him folding a flush at all, but at the same time it is still live poker and you just got 4bet on a board that looks to require essentially a nut hand to 4bet.

I think this sort of unusual situation is the absolute best spot for a free showdown play. It's extremely hard for him to lose more or less than he did here unlike a lot of the situations people talked about in Justin A's freeshowdown raise thread a while ago.

Hopefully this time I actually read the OP correctly and it was in fact a hand of poker and not a recipe for lobster bisque.

3rdCheckRaise · #4 05-01-2007, 12:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
3) If I have a very solid read on him or am otherwise really feeling my Wheaties and decide to 5-bet, it's going to cost him dearly to try to outdraw me.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nobody ever 5 bets the turn in that game without nuts. He knows it and he also knows that you not a total nut job.

DrewOnTilt · #5 05-01-2007, 12:14 AM

me:
[ QUOTE ]
5) If I 5-bet and then lead a non-club river, or even if I just call and donk a non-club river, he has to pay me off. The pot is too big to fold a made hand, and he does not know me well enough to muck a straight on a 3-flush board. He loses an extra 1-2 bets 80% of the time in this scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]

howmany:
[ QUOTE ]
As for your points, I really think he should be able to fold river UI after a 5bet so I don't know about point 5. However I think it is pretty much impossible for you to 5bet the turn anyway. In the heat of battle you will not be thinking about him folding a flush at all, but at the same time it is still live poker and you just got 4bet on a board that looks to require essentially a nut hand to 4bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another player at the table who plays a very solid game and is also a 2+2er (don't know his moniker) later told me privately that I should have considered calling and donking the river. In that case Villain loses an extra bet.

[ QUOTE ]

Hopefully this time I actually read the OP correctly and it was in fact a hand of poker and not a recipe for lobster bisque.

[/ QUOTE ]

Every time you post, you write something that makes me roll out of my damn chair laughing. In any case, the other thread was actually a recipe for teriyaki chicken on fried rice, since that is what I was eating at the table at the time this hand was played.

WuTank · #6 05-01-2007, 08:58 AM

I am far far away from your stakes, but i would call the 4bet on Turn and b/c none club,none pairing river.

mtgordon · #7 05-01-2007, 12:17 PM

I would have considered 5 betting the turn if there is no cap (but I may be awful). If the cap is 5 bets I would have called and donked the river (non-club non-board pairing).

whodaman · #8 05-01-2007, 08:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would have considered 5 betting the turn if there is no cap (but I may be awful). If the cap is 5 bets I would have called and donked the river (non-club non-board pairing).

[/ QUOTE ]
i dont understand this.
Shouldn't it be the other way around?

jkamowitz · #9 05-02-2007, 07:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Nobody ever 5 bets the turn in that game without nuts. He knows it and he also knows that you not a total nut job.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's not?? Wow my read is way off.

Abbaddabba · #10 05-03-2007, 10:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Some observations:
1) His 4-bet definitely put the frighteners on me and slowed me down
2) given #1 above, his play worked perfectly, this time.

[/ QUOTE ]

You'll still 3bet the turn with low flushes, straights, sets and good two pairs and his turn 4bet range is narrow enough that you dont want to bump up your 5bet range more than a hand or two.