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#1
04-03-2007, 10:54 AM
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0% Expert Play
I think I butchered this hand. Feel free to yell about any of it...No one seems out of control at the table so far, but I haven't been there long enough to give better stats than "This guy seems LAG, this guy seems TAG, etc." Most important question in my brain: When do you fold? I think you have to fold this at some point, but I'm willing to hear arguments against that as well...
Full Tilt Poker : Table Pilot - $1/$2 - Limit Holdem *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to Hero [Kd Qc] 3 folds, LAG calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, TAG calls, 2 folds, LAG calls *** FLOP *** [9d Qh 4h] LAG checks, Hero bets, TAG raises, LAG calls, Hero calls *** TURN *** [9d Qh 4h] [Qs] LAG checks, Hero bets, TAG raises, LAG raises, Hero calls, TAG raises, LAG calls, Hero calls *** RIVER *** [9d Qh 4h Qs] [Jc] LAG checks, Hero checks, TAG bets, LAG calls, Hero calls Ray 
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#2
04-03-2007, 11:09 AM
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Re: 0% Expert Play
nice hand
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#3
04-03-2007, 11:13 AM
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Re: 0% Expert Play
Don't fold, don't donk turn, 3bet flop.
If you really feel so bad about your hand, checking the turn, intending to raise TAG, and being faced with two cold from LAGs raise would have been the moment for you to get out. Given your donk, you now get 6:1 with probably 4 live outs. Considering that I'd never put it behind a LAG to aggressively semibluff a draw on the turn, even if oop and a paired board (scare factor!), and since your outs kill any draw anyway, I'd assume you'd get payed off handsomely if you happen to hit your K. So I'd call the turn. And I wouldn't fold for one on the river, still not being completely convinced that I was beaten on the turn to begin with. Also: Hand Converters rock!
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#6
04-03-2007, 11:35 AM
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Re: 0% Expert Play
[ QUOTE ]
Don't fold, don't donk turn, 3bet flop. If you really feel so bad about your hand, checking the turn, intending to raise TAG, and being faced with two cold from LAGs raise would have been the moment for you to get out. Given your donk, you now get 6:1 with probably 4 live outs. Considering that I'd never put it behind a LAG to aggressively semibluff a draw on the turn, even if oop and a paired board (scare factor!), and since your outs kill any draw anyway, I'd assume you'd get payed off handsomely if you happen to hit your K. So I'd call the turn. And I wouldn't fold for one on the river, still not being completely convinced that I was beaten on the turn to begin with. Also: Hand Converters rock! [/ QUOTE ] I definitely think I should have three bet the flop. If it gets capped I should be able to assume it's a set and play accordingly. I agree that when it's two BB back to me on the turn is the time to bail if I'm going to, but I couldn't bring myself to do it. I just kept thinking that the LAG could be doing this with QJ or QT just as easily. Hurmm, why not donk the turn tho? It's less likely someone else has a Q now, so am I checking to hope I can get a CR in? I'm not sure I can guarantee the TAG will bet. Or are you thinking I should be in check call mode? Sorry for no conversion. I tried to make it easy to read tho. Ray
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#7
04-03-2007, 11:38 AM
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Re: 0% Expert Play
I agree with fret, don't be so quick to fold. You had a person acting behind you and it would at least get you some information to re-raise the flop, I mean, you have a pretty good hand. On the flop you're beaten by a set, two pair, an overpair, or AQ.
My opinion is that the re-raise is a way to test this TAG. If he folds to your re-raise, it's clear that he was trying to make a quick pot and stabbed at the wrong one. If he re-raises, could he have been slow-playing an overpair by smooth calling the preflop raise, looking for someone to play back at him? Could he have hit a set of 9's? If the player is tight, I wouldn't put much weight on him having Q9 or Q4. It's also possible he might have a worse pocket pair (in this situation) like J's or 10's, and wants to push the LAG out of the hand. He has position on you, and I think a lesson to learn from this hand is exactly the power that position has. One of the things I've had to think about in these situations is that, OK, I don't have position in this hand, what does that mean? Invariably it means that you have less information available to you, so how will you get that information, and is it worth it? In this case 3-betting the flop would give you a good portion of that information with the bet still small.
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#9
04-03-2007, 12:01 PM
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Re: 0% Expert Play
[ QUOTE ]
Hurmm, why not donk the turn tho? It's less likely someone else has a Q now, so am I checking to hope I can get a CR in? I'm not sure I can guarantee the TAG will bet. Or are you thinking I should be in check call mode? [/ QUOTE ] No, c/r, for sure. Why do you think TAG won't bet? Only if he tries a free-card play. But what obvious draw is there that he'd CC preflop with? TJs? Meh. I guess he has 99, but anyway... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] He could also have JJ or TT or whatever. The point is, your donk indicates that you initially believed your hand was still good. Given the fact that it's unlikely that villain is raising a draw (not many draws to be had here), you should try to get as much $$$ into the pot as possible --> c/r.
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#10
04-03-2007, 12:09 PM
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Re: 0% Expert Play
Buzz: Tag re-raising me could be him thinking along the same lines I was, which is "Well, another queen means Hero doesn't have one, so my (insert hand here) is still good." It also could mean he has a set. The fact that it could mean both is where I run into decision problems.
n0ctu2ne: So, if I reraise, and he caps and LAG calls, I am now getting around 16:1 to call. I switch to check/call for the turn, check/fold unimproved for the river? On the turn, if I go check, TAG bets, LAG raises, I'm now getting 5:1 and folding for sure, correct? Is there any hand that TAG capped with on the flop that I have more than 5 outs against on the turn? Ray
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